Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

[Anonymous]

I think there have to have been Popes who knew it was a crock and cynically used the church to promote their own self-interest, but I'm inclined to believe, unless given good reason to think otherwise, that the Popes in recent history believed that they really were the Vicars of Christ on Earth. I don't see any reason to suspect otherwise.

I've got a friend studying to be a priest right now, and I know he's 100% sincere in his belief that the Catholic Priesthood really is sanctioned by God to celebrate the mysteries and sacraments, and teach the faithful in the name of God. I don't see any reason to suspect that this sincerity fades as someone like him is promoted through the ranks. Likewise, I've got a brother-in-law whose dad is a Stake President, and apparently believes 100% that the LDS church is true, and is doing his part to further its propogation. People just like him fill the ranks of "authorities" all the way from local wards to the upper room of the SLC temple.

This is what makes churches like ours so successful. Maybe, just maybe the founders know it's a crock, but they build up a whole system, a whole worldview, a whole set of defense mechanisms, motivators, carrots and sticks, a hierarchy and a method by which the hierarchy replenishes its ranks, etc., and after the founders are gone, the whole thing perpetuates itself just like it evolved to do, only now the leaders are themselves products of the very system they propogate. The Mormon leadership is like this, just like the Catholic leadership, the Jehovah's Witness leadership, and so it is with all these other churches out there.

[_beastie]

I agree with your assessment, Seth.

Asbman, the recent Clayton article mentioned two instances of wherein prophets or apostles made blatantly false prophecies. They both can be found in the JoD.

Heber C. Kimball

Well, I have no feelings in me against any one-not against brother Marsh; but I feel to bless him with the blessings of God, with the blessings of the earth, from the crown of your head to the soles of your feet; for this is my calling, and I do not feel to curse. But as for our enemies, they have cursed themselves with all the curses they can bear; and the cursings that are on them they never can get off, neither can those who sustain them. The Church and kingdom to which we belong will become the kingdom of our God and his Christ, and brother Brigham Young will become President of the United States.
(Voices responded, "Amen.")

And I tell you he will be something more; but we do not now want to give him the name: but he is called and ordained to a far greater station than that, and he is foreordained to take that station, and he has got it; and I am Vice-President, and brother Wells is the Secretary of the Interior-yes, and of all the armies in the flesh.

You don't believe that; but I can tell you it is one of the smallest things that I can think of. You may think that I am joking; but I am perfectly willing that brother Long should write every word of it; for I can see it just as naturally as I see the earth and the productions thereof.

Let us live our religion, serve our God, be good and kind one to another, cease all those contentions in your houses, and live in peace.

Brigham Young

What is the cause of all this waste of life and treasure? To tell it in a plain, truthful way, one portion of the country wish to raise their negroes or black slaves, and the other portion wish to free them, and, apparently, to almost worship them. Well, raise and worship them, who cares? I should never fight one moment about it, for the cause of human improvement is not in the least advanced by the dreadful war which now convulses our nnhappy [unhappy] country.

Ham will continue to be the servant of servants, as the Lord has decreed, until the curse is removed. Will the present struggle free the slave? No; but they are now wasting away the black race by thousands. Many of the blacks are treated worse than we treat our dumb brutes; and men will be called to judgment for the way they have treated the negro, and they will receive the condemnation of a guilty conscience, by the just Judge whose attributes are justice and truth.

Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed. Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot. Yet our Christian brethren think that they are going to overthrow the sentence of the Almighty upon the seed of Ham. They cannot do that, though they may kill them by thousands and tens of thousands.

According to accounts, in all probability not less than one million men, from twenty to forty years of age, have gone to the silent grave in this useless war, in a little over two years, and all to gratify the caprice of a few,-I do not think I have a suitable name for them, shall we call them abolitionists, slaveholders, religious bigots, or political aspirants? Call them what you will, they are wasting away each other, and it seems as though they will not be satisfied until they have brought universal destruction and desolation upon the whole country. It appears as though they would destroy every person; perhaps they will, but I think they will not. God rules. Do you know it? It is the kingdom of God or nothing for the Latter-day Saints.

These are just two examples among many - examples where prophets or apostles made serious pronouncements, over the pulpit, in the name of Jesus Christ, while functioning in their callings. We both agree that these men probably took their callings very seriously, and prayed seriously about receiving inspiration and revelation prior to and during the talk. And yet they were totally misled. They had ideas that they each thought were given to them by God, and obviously those ideas were nothing more than "the opinions of man".

So, again, why should any member of the church imagine he/she is able to do what even the prophets and apostles can't seem to do - ie, judge between their own opinion and revelation?

[_harmony]

These are just two examples among many - examples where prophets or apostles made serious pronouncements, over the pulpit, in the name of Jesus Christ, while functioning in their callings.

At least they tried. Today's leaders don't even try. Personally, I think they're too scared to try, scared of being wrong, scared someone will call them on the horse manure we get every 6 months.