Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

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_truth dancer
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _truth dancer »

ajax18 wrote:It seems to me the specific promises that Islam offers generates a strong religious fervor and willingness to sacrifice in its followers.

In my experience, Islamic women in their full covering and dress don't strike me as depressed or abused. They seem proud of their religious convictions and walk with their heads held high. I think they're happy because they believe in the promises offered them in the next life as well. I don't think this attitude is the result of being beaten down and conditioned to believe they have less potential for happiness than men do. They must see their own good in it somewhere.

While I don't agree with the Islamic belief system, I do believe that their works and sacrifice will not be completely in vain. To me Newton's second law applies to spiritual matters as well. I can't help but respect their fasting, committment to family, and faith in the afterlife. The universe always has a way of balancing itself out.

Hi Ajax,

I'm assuming you are referring to American Muslim women? Yes, in the United States men who beat their wives go to jail. Women can be seen in pubic without getting punished. Our culture is moving to a place where it is not appropriate for a man to harm his wife and children. Not so in other countries.

There is a big difference between women wearing a hijab by choice and women who can't be seen in public without a man, who have to walk behind men, and who are invisible in society, and beaten by their husbands with the blessings of Allah.

Have you ever actually spoken to women who live this way?

Would YOU like living this way? (Not being able to leave your home without a full black cover where you peek out of the black netting of your mask)? Where you have virtually no rights? Where you can't drive a car? Have to walk behind women and girls as an inferior being?

If not, why do you think women are happy with it? Why do you think this works?

I'm reminded of a FLDS woman I once talked to, she was absolutely suffering beyond what I can write. Yet, she "knew" she was doing God's will. She believed she was taking the "Abrahamic test" giving up her life for something in the next. She was vacant of life. It was like she didn't think she even existed.

When a child is constantly abused, she doesn't know anything else. She may not even complain believing her treatment is all part of life.

Similarly, people often find ways to accept their challenges.. doesn't mean they like them or are happy with them. It means humans have the ability to cope, to survive.

Does enslaving, denigrating, degrading women work? It works like slavery. It is all about men gaining power by exploiting others.

Does the universe balance itself out? I do think the universe has a sort of homeostasis but I do not see it in anyway as do you.

We have been out of balance for the past six thousand years and are finally, slowly moving toward a way of life that is more in harmony with existence.

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_ajax18
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _ajax18 »

No, the way women are treated as you describe is not right. Yes, I do believe that as bad as it is for them, the attonement will restore the balance and right these wrongs. No, that doesn't make it right for men to treat women this way. Yes we should work to change things. But I really wouldn't know the best way to go about it.

Just pointing out that the Moslem women I met gave off an "alpha" vibe, which I totally didn't expect.

I guess I'm not the one to come to if you're looking for an argument these days. My soul is at peace and my faith is restored. I've found the good.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

ajax18 wrote:In my experience, Islamic women in their full covering and dress don't strike me as depressed or abused. They seem proud of their religious convictions and walk with their heads held high. I think they're happy because they believe in the promises offered them in the next life as well. I don't think this attitude is the result of being beaten down and conditioned to believe they have less potential for happiness than men do. They must see their own good in it somewhere.

I've met plenty of such Muslim women myself.

There are, obviously, many oppressed women in the Islamic world. But there are many who willingly and happily choose for themselves to adopt traditional Islamic garb. I know several of them, and I know some of them reasonably well.
_Brackite
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _Brackite »

Hello all Here,

The Brackite thinks that this Discussion thread should be moved to the Terrestrial Forum. The Brackite thinks that this thread would be more appropriate there. And plus, There is more traffic there.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_ludwigm
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _ludwigm »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
ajax18 wrote:...
They seem proud of their religious convictions and walk with their heads held high. I think they're happy because they believe in the promises offered them in the next life as well.
...
I've met plenty of such Muslim women myself.

There are, obviously, many oppressed women in the Islamic world. But there are many who willingly and happily choose for themselves to adopt traditional Islamic garb. I know several of them, and I know some of them reasonably well.


They could be as happy in Mormon world as they are in islam one.

Stupidity is a general attribute of people, it is independent of gender.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

ludwigm wrote:Stupidity is a general attribute of people, it is independent of gender.

Cultural arrogance, chauvinism, and condescension are quite common, too.
_ludwigm
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _ludwigm »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
ludwigm wrote:Stupidity is a general attribute of people, it is independent of gender.
Cultural arrogance, chauvinism, and condescension are quite common, too.

I understand all the words You have used.
The sentence, as a whole, is correct by syntax and grammar.
But ... why did You write it? What is Your message?

Hewers and ballet dancers are weird people, as the musicians and painters.
Did You get it?
(I'm sorry, this is from a work of a big hungarian humorist, who - I am certain - is unknown for You. Anyway, this sentence has nothing to do with the topic. As hasn't Your quoted sentence - if it remains unexplicated.)

Ps. You are in error, I am not Scratch. I want only to understand the things around me.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Gazelam
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _Gazelam »

Am I to understand that in the eyes of certain Muslims heaven is a place where pedophiles are treated to a buffet of drunken boys?

Did I read that at the end of the OP correctly?

My brother spent some time in Kuwait attempting to train some of the locals in how to operate an air traffic control tower, and homosexuality was rampant there. Apparently women are there to provide the men with children and servitude, but sexual pleasure was derived from other men.That was how they explained it to him when he asked them why the hell they were sitting on each others laps and kissing. He wrote it off as some sort of bizarre cultural thing.

This scripture sems to condone their behavior.

Is homosexuality acceptable is the eyes of the Muslim Allah?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Ray A

Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _Ray A »

Gazelam wrote:Is homosexuality acceptable is the eyes of the Muslim Allah?


In many Muslim countries the penalty for homosexuality ranges from 10 years in prison to execution.

But your brother's report seems to match This one

Despite the risk of death, homosexuals are flooding out of the ‘closet’ and into the streets. In Kuwait specifically, you can often see gangs of homosexuals walking together. They are easy to spot. The dress code for male homosexuals in Kuwait is tight clothing, shaped eyebrows, white foundation with powder and a little lipstick. For females, they dress up like males with short spiky hair, studs and chains. Islamic MPs in Kuwait have been calling for the formation of a special religious police unit to uphold morals in the country. But so far this request has fallen on deaf ears. Homosexuality is just one of the problems the MPs want to be tackled in Kuwait. Other problems include public lewdness and indecent behavior by young heterosexuals.


Note the last bold sentence in the quote. Seems to be a worldwide problem.
_Gazelam
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Re: Islam and Mormon heavens both tiered and involve more wome

Post by _Gazelam »

In reference to various views of a tiered heaven, I found this interesting quote:

Directly equivalent concepts in Indian thought are lokas and bhuvanas. In Hindu cosmology, there are traditionally seven lokas or worlds, while Buddhist cosmology has a much larger number of "deva lokas", identified with both traditional cosmology and states of meditation.

Planes of existence are sometimes referred to as "eggs". For example, the Sanskrit term Brahmanda translates to "the Egg of God". In this context, Brahmanda is thought to encompass the Anda (astral or subtle) and Pinda (physical or gross) eggs, in a way metaphorically analogous to a set of Russian dolls — the larger containing the next smaller, which contains the next smaller, and so on.

The ancient Norsemen and the Teutonic mythology called "Ginnungagap" to the primordial "Chaos," which was bounded upon the northern side by the cold and foggy "Niflheim"--the land of mist and fog--and upon the south side by the fire "Muspelheim." When heat and cold entered into space which was occupied by Chaos or Ginnungagap, they caused the crystallization of the visible universe.

In the medieval West and Middle East, one finds reference to four worlds (olam) in Kabbalah, or five in Sufism (where they are also called tanazzulat; "descents"), and also in Lurianic Kabbalah. In Kabbalah, each of the four or five worlds are themselves divided into ten sefirot, or else divided in other ways.


Most cosmologies suggest that there are both positive and negative planes. They indicate that an Earth-departed soul is propelled towards the plane that corresponds to the level of its merits or demerits. One example of this understanding can be found in the secular or popular Christianity, where in afterlife, a departed soul finds itself in either heaven or hell. Other traditions, including the inner or esoteric Christianity, suggest that there are finer differences between various positive and negative planes, and that each plane beyond Earth plane becomes more and more subtle. It is commonly believed that positive planes are inhabited by subtle bodies doing righteous deeds, whereas negative planes are inhabited by subtle bodies doing unrighteous deeds.


Notice how this belief is spread out throughout the world. Among various cultures who really would have little to no contact with one another. Perhaps they shared a common ancestor who passed this belief onto their children?

(Cough)Noah(Cough)
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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