Palin's Speech: What do you think?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_GoodK

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _GoodK »

dartagnan wrote:She doesn't speak in tongues. But you're not interested in facts are you?


I beg to differ.


Well this explains plenty. But you don't know more black people than I do.


I'm not going to argue with you over something so embarrassing. It will only make me look bad. It's clear, by your posts (see my sig line) you have no idea what you are talking about and are a racist person.


You're an amatuer on this subject. Liking gangster rap doesn't make you an expert.


LOL. And watching Bill Cosby and knocking on some minorities doors
on your mission doesn't make you an expert.

There is more than just gangster rap out there, stupid ass.

No one really listens to gangster rap anymore. I hate to tell you this, but Eazy E died. So did Tupac, and Notorious BIG.

Here, why don't you spend your time catching up with the times:

Some of the greatest hip hop groups ever:

Heiroglyphics

Handsome Boy Modeling School

MURS

The Beatnuts

Atmosphere
Of course Atmosphere is white, so I'm not sure how that helps your case.

Of course, bands like Deicide Hate Eternal and Akercocke are cool because, well... not rap.

You're an idiot.


You're just a stupid, young, impressionable kid who thinks he's bad because he smokes and likes gangster rap.


You're just a stupid, old, gullible, dork that thinks he knows everything.


And I take that as a compliment, given the company we're in. To say I'm uncultured is pretty darn funny too. I've lived in more countries than you have cities.


And look at you.

Just go take a nap on your Notorious B.I.G bedsheets?


Your wife told you about my sheets?

If you were anywhere near California, I'd bitch slap you on behalf of "the black man."


Well, I will be out there in March.


Oh goodie. Let's go to lunch.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&g ... iwloc=addr
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _asbestosman »

dartagnan wrote:
You, on the other hand, are an uncultured, racist bumpkin. Virtually everyone on this message board thinks you are a tool and a loser.


And I take that as a compliment, given the company we're in.

Dart does have a good point there.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _asbestosman »

dartagnan wrote:It depends on what is meant by "educational difficulties." The opportunity for education is there, the problem is getting poorer families interested. Poorer families tend to be more depressed. Education isn't a high priority for them. Frequently the poorer children are raised by single parents who either live off welfare and are prone to alcholism, tobacco or drugs, as a way to numb themselves from their condition, or they are raised by a single parent who works crazy hours making minimum wage. In either case, it is difficult for proper parenting to occur when living in those conditions.


Wow Dart, I agree. In fact I believe tried to say something similar when talking about the problem of poor families with you earlier.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _dartagnan »

I'm not going to argue with you over something so embarrassing. It will only make me look bad. It's clear, by your posts (see my sig line) you have no idea what you are talking about and are a racist person.

Translation = I can't argue with you because i'm a dumb kid with an ego larger than my knowledge base. So I will simply retort by calling yo a racist as I always have.
LOL. And watching Bill Cosby and knocking on some minorities doors on your mission doesn't make you an expert.

That isn't what I am basing it on either. Again, it helps to know what you're talking about. Unfortunately for you, you never do.
There is more than just gangster rap out there, stupid ass. No one really listens to gangster rap anymore. I hate to tell you this, but Eazy E died. So did Tupac, and Notorious BIG.

And they were considered martyrs by young impressionable kids. The reason "50 cent" became such an icon was because he survived getting shot at numerous times back in his drug dealing days. He was the top earner of all rap artists last ear, grossing more than 150 million.

A local favorite here in Atlanta is Kanye West, who brags about being a college drop out. In fact, the name of his debut album is "College Dropout." I'll let reasonable minds conclude from that what impressionable children will take from his message. He was recently arrested on charges of felony vandalism. He has a duet that is pretty popular on regular radio stations, called "American Boy." It has a good rhythm to it. All of teh talent comes from the female singer, but why did he feel the need to curse in it? It is a song for popular consumption, but he has his "thug rep" to protect I guess.

"P-Diddy" made 35 million last year and everyone knows this talentless idiot is just a sidekick of the Notorious B.I.G, both of whom started out selling crack to teenagers. His most popular hit was a knock off he robbed from Sting's "Every Breath you Take."

And then there is "Jay-Z" who must be the most illiterate person in show business. He made 84 million last year. He was raised in a housing project in the Bronx. He was raised by a single parent and once shot his own brother for stealing his jewlry. He dropped out of high school because, by his own admission, he was too busy selling drugs.

His message to children, as I once heard him state in an interview, is "just be theyselfs." Don't worry about education, because he sure as hell didn't. The dominant theme among the younger black generation is "Get rich or Die trying." They look up to these idiots the same way our parents looked up to John Lennon.

Now those are the top four rap artists of last year. Those are the most influencial, but others would include "Timbaland" whose top hit is grammatically challenged: "The Way I Are." Gee, is it any wonder so many black kids prefer to reinvent their own form of English and they think its cool?

The entire rap industry is anti-education to say the least.
Some of the greatest hip hop groups ever:

An eminem wannabe white boy pretending to know who the best rappers are is funny in itself, but the fact is the most influencial rappers will be the ones making the most money and selling the most albums. The groups you listed are way down on the totum pole.
Handsome Boy Modeling School

Haven't produced an album in four years.
MURS

Which is an acronym for Making Underground Raw crap.
Yeah, a true positive influence for children, to be sure.
The Beatnuts

Yeah, these guys are very different from your typical thug rap artists:
Image
Atmosphere

And their album, "When Life Gives You Lemons, You Paint That Sh*it Gold ," must also be a positive influence for kids.
Your wife told you about my sheets?

Its OK, you're allowed to dream about my wife. You're not the first.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_GoodK

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _GoodK »

No. Translation is:

It's so unbelievably lame for two white people to argue about who knows more black people I simply won't let you drag me down to your level of dorky lameness. You clearly can't see the lame forest you live in with all those racist, square trees.

As for the rest of your post, you don't know anything about music.
Calling me an eminem wannabe is just further proof of this and more stereotyping and racist blabber.
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _dartagnan »

It isn't about who knows more about music. This is about who knows more about how rap music influences kids. Ironically, it has clearly influenced you.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _beastie »

Lower economic status is related to educational difficulties, which usually have their root in borderline literacy. Human beings are not automatically “wired” to be able to learn to read, like we are “wired” to learn to be able to speak. Reading and writing developed too late in our species’ history to be hard-wired and programmed. Learning to read is a process that exploits certain inclinations, due to learning oral language, and depends on the brain’s development being influenced by those exploitations. These things have to occur at a very young age. Children have to be exposed to literacy from infancy on. Children born in poorer households not only deal with the social problems associated therein, but also have to deal with the fact that they are at much higher risk of being parented by illiterate or borderline literate individuals, who will not be able or inclined to provide the situations wherein their youngsters’ mind can be shaped by early exposure to literacy. The human mind is much more plastic and adaptable in infancy and early childhood. This is why young children can learn a foreign language much more easily than adults can. This is the ideal time period in which exposure to literature, reading, and writing, must occur for it to result in unstrained future “learning to read”. A child that hits kindergarten coming from an illiterate or borderline literate household, who has not had repeated exposure to higher levels of vocabulary contained in text, and who has not been exposed to the process of reading via an adult is already five years behind his/her cohorts. Not only is that child five years behind his/her cohorts, but that child’s brain has not been exploited by early literacy in ways that help that brain to be more receptive to learning to read and write. The brief window of opportunity, the time in which these things can occur more readily and naturally, is quickly coming to a close, after which attaining literacy will be a struggle. Not impossible – but a struggle that requires immense self discipline, determination, and a belief it will make a difference in the end. Our society does not regularly provide reasons to believe in that. I am daily amazed at the strength and fortitude of some of my students who get up and come to school every day, despite years of failure and negative messages about their intelligence, and still try, one more day. I wonder how many of us comfortable products of middle class upbringings, who always knew college was in our futures, would have that kind of strength.

These children have parents who love them, just like middle class children do. They also have some negligent parents, just like middle class children do. It is ignorant to assume, in any way, that these children are struggling because their parents don’t care enough to help them, or have been brain-washed in some way by rap music. These children are struggling because their parents struggled, and due to that struggle, were not able to give their children what other children were receiving in infancy and early childhood.

These deprived children come from homes immersed in rap music. They also come from homes immersed in country music. Their skin is sometimes dark. Their skin is sometimes light. Their skin is sometimes in-between. The idea that their problems are being caused by the type of music they listen to is simplistic nonsense based in convenient ignorance of the real issues facing these families.

I have worked with struggling readers for decades, of all races. I have worked with the parents of struggling readers for decades, of all races. Most of these parents care, and care a lot – but they don’t have the tools to help their children succeed. If any of you armchair, privileged critics could spend a few minutes trying to comfort a weeping mother who knows her child is following in the same track of school failure as she did, but who is frustrated and powerless to stop it because she does not have the tools she needs to do so, you would stop spouting ignorant and, frankly, hate-filled nonsense about the lives of human beings you don’t know, and probably don’t care to know.

That is all I have to say on the subject. If I continue to read any more of this racist nonsense, I will likely blow a gasket. I have enough stress in my life without dealing with this type of deliberate, smug ignorance, and I need to remember these type of discussions are why I put dart on ignore in the first place.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _dartagnan »

These things have to occur at a very young age. Children have to be exposed to literacy from infancy on.

Is illiteracy a problem? Of ocurse it is. Illiteracy is never a good thing. But it isn't the main reason why poorer children prefer a life of irresponsibility, or why they prefer crime over morality. Virtually the entire Islamic world is illiterate, but they younger generation lives well within their societies without resorting to crime. Most criminals in America can read too, and that hasn't prevented them from turning to a life of crime. Guaranteed literacy doesn't guarantee that a child will take education seriously. In our age of the internet, kids are fascinated with it, and will get most of their reading skill from that.

The key to the problem resides in the home of the child, and the greatest influence on any child are the parents. Only when these parents become responsible can we ever hope to see a dramatic increase in responsible childhood education and a reduction in crime.
Children born in poorer households not only deal with the social problems associated therein, but also have to deal with the fact that they are at much higher risk of being parented by illiterate or borderline literate individuals, who will not be able or inclined to provide the situations wherein their youngsters’ mind can be shaped by early exposure to literacy.

But a teenager isn't going to get his girlfriend pregnant, steal a car, smoke crack, etc., all because his Mom doesn't read the newspaper. A teenager will do these things because that is the accepted norm for this newer generation, especially in a culture that turns to criminals turned rich, as role models.
The human mind is much more plastic and adaptable in infancy and early childhood. This is why young children can learn a foreign language much more easily than adults can. This is the ideal time period in which exposure to literature, reading, and writing, must occur for it to result in unstrained future “learning to read”.

Of ocurse, but it doesn't do anything to prevent them from choosing a life of crime or rebellion. This is what you're not getting. You're focusing on the wrong thing.
A child that hits kindergarten coming from an illiterate or borderline literate household, who has not had repeated exposure to higher levels of vocabulary contained in text, and who has not been exposed to the process of reading via an adult is already five years behind his/her cohorts.

And when kids are raised in a dysfunctional household they are more likely to get most of their literacy exposure from rap artists and other friends who think its cool.
I wonder how many of us comfortable products of middle class upbringings, who always knew college was in our futures, would have that kind of strength.

College is in their future too, if they are taught about its importance. There is nothing stopping them.

These children have parents who love them, just like middle class children do. They also have some negligent parents, just like middle class children do.

Ah, the equivalence fallacy. You don't know this is true. I've been in plenty of these homes, and I rarely see love from the parents "just like the middle class." This is the defect in your paradigm that stops you from seeing the real problem. You've designed this paradigm that excuses the person and blames society. Thisis precisely the problem and its what keeps the black man down and tells him he is doomed from the start. In your work with teh poor, you've doing nothing to cure the disease, you've only focused on treating symptoms.

I can take 10 teenagers from Brazil and move them to the USA and within a decade they'd be prospering in whatever field they chose. The President of Brazil received no education as a child, and yet he learned to read as an adult, can speak English, and communicates well with other world leaders. The reason the Brasilians will succeed is because they know what its really like to have nothing. They'll take advantage of the opportunities America provides them.
It is ignorant to assume, in any way, that these children are struggling because their parents don’t care enough to help them, or have been brain-washed in some way by rap music.

You have to take it on a case by case basis. I'm certainly not saying all poor parents reject their children out of hand. But on the whole, poorer children who turn to a rowdy life of irresponsibility, are those who follow role models in the music industry. This is an established fact, and it isn't limited to black kids. It just happens to be more prevalent among them.
These children are struggling because their parents struggled

Of course. But more importantly, because their parents are not being good parents. It isn't enough to just say they care about their kids. You can be poor and a good parent at the same time, but the poorer folks don't seem to understand what makes a good parent, probably because they didn't have good parents either.
and due to that struggle, were not able to give their children what other children were receiving in infancy and early childhood.

Now you're making excuses for them. These parents can give their kids teh necessary love and attention that would help develop them into model citizens, but as we already know, poorer adults are inclined to domestic violence, alcoholism, etc.

Tell me something beastie. Why do poorer neighborhoods have more liquor stores and gun shops than they do grocery stores or churches? You probably believbe it is a racist government designed conspiracy to keep the black man down. That's certainly the kind of thing black preachers say. But these businesses set up shop there because that is where the business is.
These deprived children come from homes immersed in rap music. They also come from homes immersed in country music. Their skin is sometimes dark. Their skin is sometimes light.

You keep covering your ears, but I already refuted your country music comparison. There is no comparison.
The idea that their problems are being caused by the type of music they listen to is simplistic nonsense based in convenient ignorance of the real issues facing these families.

As I said before, the primary cause is based on the failure of proper parenting. Criminal role models, such as those in the music industry, simply fill in the gaps poor parenting leaves behind.
I have worked with struggling readers for decades, of all races.

Well this expalins why you're under delusion that illiteracy is source of all their problems. It isn't. Again there are plenty of criminals who read and plenty of model citizens who can't. Getting educated doesn't guarantee a responsible life.

And oh, and you put me on "ignore" because you couldn't respond to point by point refutations, and it was damaging your ego. This thread is no exception.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _Droopy »

One more quick point - educational difficulties are strongly correlated with economic status, not race.



What pap. Poverty, language barriers, and lack of initial education never stopped the millions who came through Ellis Island from prospering, nor the many Boat people who came here with literally nothing. It only seems to be holding back that small demographic of blacks and whites trapped in the welfare culture.

And that's the real rub: its culture that is strongly correlated with economic and educational status, not educational difficulties in and of themselves that are correlated with economic status, unless economic and educational status is correlated with certain cultural dynamics. And, as correlation gives us no specific knowledge regarding causation, we again must look to certain cultural characteristics among certain groups of the poor. This entire country was built by the poor, from Ellis Island to millions coming out of WWII with the GI Bill to endless recent immigrants who have done very well here even when arriving with little to begin with and language barriers.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Palin's Speech: What do you think?

Post by _Droopy »

I have no idea what's going on with this, but it wasn't intended.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
Post Reply