Question for you Richard re Stalin/atheism/morality

[_marg]

Well, something broke loose in the Soviet Union under Stalin and China under Mao. Clearly, some atheists do very bad things (as do some theists).

Richard atheists do not associate their lack of God belief with some moral highground. But on the other hand the same can not be said of many religious individual who seem to think they hold some moral highground by the mere fact they hold a god belief and that those who don't will likely be immoral. It appears that is your position or why else mention Stalin as if you are making some sort of valid argument against atheism. As if Stalin is representative of "atheists" in general and that his atheism is the critical cause for his immoral actions against his own people..his own tribe. Sheesh.

Really Richard, the evidence indicates that having a God belief does not make one a moral individual. Lacking a god belief does not make one an immoral individual. Perhaps belonging to a group leads one to be supportive of their group. So organized religious groups may tend to favor their group to the exclusion of or at the expense of those outside the group, but that doesn't make them particularly moral in doing so.

Why do you assume your belief in God makes you a morally superior individual to those who don't hold a God belief? Why do you assume atheism the cause of Stalin's inhumanity to his own people?


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[_Yoda]

(Moderator Note) Since Richard requested that his thread be a debate between himself and GoodK, I have created a separate thread for those who wish to provide additional commentary for either side of their arguments.

[_Danna]

One could argue as to the immorality of non-karma believers or non-believers in reincarnation.

Crikey, I could make an even stronger argument about the evil deeds of those who do not believe in Santa. Actually I am sure a correlation of santa belief vs evil deeds would show a strong negative correlation.

[_Danna]

I would like to point out the fact that Hitler DID NOT BELIEVE IN SANTA. And look how bad he was. The lack of belief in a supernatural being who calculates 'goodness' vs 'badness' on a yearly basis is clearly the cause of immorality and cruelty to one's fellows. Else why would anyone bother to behave, if there were not a regular reckoning of ones good vs bad deeds?

[_richardMdBorn]

Marg, my comment

RichardWell, something broke loose in the Soviet Union under Stalin and China under Mao. Clearly, some atheists do very bad things (as do some theists).

was in response to GoodK’s comment

GoodK I don't know why I hear this so much, as if atheism is just a free for all and is for people looking for all hell to break loose. Being accountable to an eternal tyrant has nothing to do with anyone's atheism.

GoodK appears to believe a strong version of atheism similar to Christopher Hitchens. Religion is not only untrue but it makes most if not all believers worse people. If he does not believe this I will revise my comments. My point is that SOME branches of atheism have resulted in very bad consequences.

[_marg]

My point is that SOME branches of atheism have resulted in very bad consequences.

Richard in the last month I think I've come across this link of Stalin to atheism as if this proves atheism evil about 5 times. I just haven't noticed it previously. Dan Peterson in that video Danna posted about and started a thread in the Terrestial forum did it. Jason Bourne posted some article by a Dennis Prager who did it and Jason agreed with him and also did it. And there has been some other times. You are the first religious person that I'm asking why. What is the argument being made when you link Stalin to atheism?

I understand (I think)from a religious point of view that it appears to be a counter example of linking examples of evil involved with religion such as the Crusades to religion. But I do see a cause and effect link of the Crusades to religion whereas I don't see a cause and effect link of Stalin and evil to atheism. I don't think atheism had anything to do with Stalin's psychopathic mind.

Now what I also find disagreeable is that it seems that the majority of religious individuals from my readings on the net, perceive themselves as being morally superior to atheists. Hitchens since you brought him up does not claim atheism makes atheists moral. What he argues is that theism can be a cause for immoral behavior. And I would add I'm not sure if he does that applies in particular when the religious beliefs override a rational objective evaluation. Many theists seem to believe their religion guarantees they'll make moral decision as long as they follow authoritative rules of their church or the Bible. Of course when any man uses the Bible for moral guidance it boils down to a matter of interpretation and picking and choosing what to use. So there really doesn't seem to be much evidence that morality stems from religion which is contrary to the claim of most religions. If it does I don't see it.

Your last sentence I'm interested in you elaborating further on. You say: "My point is that SOME branches of atheism have resulted in very bad consequences."

What branches are you referring to. If you are referring to someone like Hitchens please quote him to back up what you think his position is.

by the way Richard..I just received a note this morning from Eric who mentioned he won't be posting on the board for a while, as his computer crashed and he's lost everything on it.