DAN VOGEL DISCUSSES THE SPALDING/RIGDON THEORY

[_DonBradley]

Hi Dale,

There's known to have been Cochranite preaching in Palmyra around 1824-1826?

Don

[_Uncle Dale]

Hi Dale,

There's known to have been Cochranite preaching in Palmyra around 1824-1826?

Don

Cochran started a colony of his followers in northern Alleghany Co. in the early 1820s, but I have been
unable to find out very much about them. Samuel D. Greene, to whose house William Morgan's supposed body
was brought (and where the funeral service was conducted by a local preacher named Cochran), recalled that
a young Joseph Smith came to Batavia in company with the infamous Prophet Jacob Cochran, in 1826:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL ... htm#122077

Greene's account is muddled, so it is difficult to sort out the likely facts. However one interesting possibility of
a connection with Mormonism may be found in Cochranite visions. Individual members would be thrown
down to the ground by a divine power, and then would have visions of the heavens or of divine personages.

Greene says that Smith left Cochran and did some preaching on his own --- if this is a true story, it must have
happened (as Greene says) away from the Palmyra area. In his account, Greene says that Smith, while he was
thus preaching, would collapse to the floor and experience divine visions.

You can pick out some additional information here:
http://olivercowdery.com/gathering/JCoc ... m#comments

By the way --- if anybody is interested in my reviewing the 2006 booklet on Smith and Rigdon, as written and
published by John L. Smith, I can put together some comments on his rather poor text (and provide a little more
insight into 1820s Cochranite preaching in the Palmyra area as a sort of side benefit of my commentary) -- ???



UD

[_why me]

In regards to the Book of Mormon authorship, many people would be in on the con if a person believes in the sidney/Joseph connection. And the hope that all would keep their mouths shut tight as a can of beans. The conspiracy theory can run amuck in this regard....

If we start out with the probablity that both Rigdon and Smith thought that what they were doing was God's will;
and that their method of working out things in their own minds and then seeking divine confirmation was a
reliable one --- then we need not attribute the Book of Mormon, nor the JST, nor the early revelations to a vicious "con."

UD

Of course this would make them both pious fraudsters. I tend to doubt it. One must be severely delusional to think of themselves as pious frauds in this kind of case if you are correct. They would both just be liars and nothing more. However, I can admire your take on it.

But for Joseph Smith to experience what he experienced at the hands of mobs and individuals for a work of fiction (and someone else's fiction at that) just does not make sense to me. But stranger things have happened I suppose. He died a failure if you are correct. But if the Mormons got it right about Joseph Smith, then Joseph did not die a failure but he died a prophet who ushered in a new restoration. And I can not suppose that Joseph Smith would see such a legacy nor die for such a legacy. All around him in jail was failure and death, including his own children.

[_Uncle Dale]

In regards to the Book of Mormon authorship, many people would be in on the con if a person believes in the sidney/Joseph connection. And the hope that all would keep their mouths shut tight as a can of beans. The conspiracy theory can run amuck in this regard....

If we start out with the probablity that both Rigdon and Smith thought that what they were doing was God's will;
and that their method of working out things in their own minds and then seeking divine confirmation was a
reliable one --- then we need not attribute the Book of Mormon, nor the JST, nor the early revelations to a vicious "con."

UD

Of course this would make them both pious fraudsters. I tend to doubt it. One must be severely delusional to think of themselves as pious frauds in this kind of case if you are correct. They would both just be liars and nothing more. However, I can admire your take on it.

But for Joseph Smith to experience what he experienced at the hands of mobs and individuals for a work of fiction (and someone else's fiction at that) just does not make sense to me. But stranger things have happened I suppose. He died a failure if you are correct. But if the Mormons got it right about Joseph Smith, then Joseph did not die a failure but he died a prophet who ushered in a new restoration. And I can not suppose that Joseph Smith would see such a legacy nor die for such a legacy. All around him in jail was failure and death, including his own children.

Possibly you are right -- but I'm not sure you understood fully what I was saying.

I am operating under the theory that both Rigdon and Smith believed that Nephites were real, and that they were
being divinely guided as they prepared a holy text revealing that lost religious past.

My theory is that they had two standards to guide them -- (1) that history is comprised of seven gospel dispensations,
each of which was very much like the others in terms of the revealed religion, church organization, relationships, etc.
(2) that divine truths could be established by first working out precepts in one's head, and then seeking confirmation
via a seer-stone or divining rod.

Add to those two standards, one more established fact (for Rigdon and Smith): That all religion was hopelessly and
demonically corrupt --- that ANYTHING done to restore apostolic Christianity was BETTER than current religious
paractices, even if deception must be used to promote "restored religion." In other words, just as the leaders could
be purposefully deceptive in hiding from public view Nauvoo polygamy, Smith being crowned king in 1844, etc., so
in the same manner they were purposefully deceptive regarding the "gift and power of God" in Mormon origins.

If those three elements are valid, then Rigdon and Smith would not have thought of their secret pre-1830 cooperation
as being a "pious fraud," -- they would have seen it as being a divine necessity, worth all that they had, including
their families and their own lives, if need be.

UD

[_TAK]

bump..

[_Uncle Dale]

bump..

So -- what will Dan Vogel's response to the Stanford team's Book of Mormon authorship study results be?

My guess: That their methodology and results are seriously flawed and can be ignored.

Uncle Dale

[_Jersey Girl]

bump..

So -- what will Dan Vogel's response to the Stanford team's Book of Mormon authorship study results be?

My guess: That their methodology and results are seriously flawed and can be ignored.

Uncle Dale

Could the Stanford authorship study possibly/simply change the facilitator of pious fraud?

Am I even on the right page, Dale?

[_Uncle Dale]

Could the Stanford authorship study possibly/simply change the facilitator of pious fraud?

Am I even on the right page, Dale?

Exactly --- but Dan can say that, since Smith's wordprint was
not included in the testing, that the results are flawed.

By the way -- both Criddle and I hold open the possibility that
Smith (and others) could well have started out as pious frauds;
or even deluded pious people, who could not distinguish fraud
from their own peculiar view of reality.

Dale

[_Jersey Girl]

Exactly --- but Dan can say that, since Smith's wordprint was
not included in the testing, that the results are flawed.

By the way -- both Criddle and I hold open the possibility that
Smith (and others) could well have started out as pious frauds;
or even deluded pious people, who could not distinguish fraud
from their own peculiar view of reality.

I think that people could come to the belief that even Rigdon's (alleged) involvement with Manuscript Story was a case of divine intervention.

And thank you, I need a guide dog every now and then.

[_Uncle Dale]

Exactly --- but Dan can say that, since Smith's wordprint was
not included in the testing, that the results are flawed.

By the way -- both Criddle and I hold open the possibility that
Smith (and others) could well have started out as pious frauds;
or even deluded pious people, who could not distinguish fraud
from their own peculiar view of reality.

I think that people could come to the belief that even Rigdon's (alleged) involvement with Manuscript Story was a case of divine intervention.

And thank you, I need a guide dog every now and then.

They'd need to remove one word from the D&C revelation -- the one that
admits as much, but says Rigdon "knew it not.'

Just remove the "not."

Dale