I'm getting confused

[_The Nehor]

What can be "known" via prayer?

Anything you ask that God cares to answer. In my experience, lots.

Praying yourself to knowledge doesn't work unless you've put a good faith effort to learn it first. God may attest to the truth of the law of gravity but if you don't know what gravity is this is kinda pointless.

[_Mad Viking]

I live in Utah and my entire family is a part of the Mormon church, except my sister who left the church to rebel against my mom. I've been having doubts about the church for a long time and I've really wanted to sort of work out what that means. The only problem is that there's really no where for me to do that, my family is political and extremely religous and so is my ward and neighbors, and there's really no where else that I would really want to talk about this personal of thing. So I've just been reading up on the internet and been trying to see all sides instead of just the one.

Sounds like you're not looking for answers, only reasons to doubt.

False dichotomy alert!!

[_consiglieri]

I'm new here and I've been browzing for a while, . . . She's told me that she gets the feeling I have been looking at things I shouldn't be.

It sounds like your mother may have a good source.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_scripturesearcher]

Believe me Bond, when you receive a witness of the Spirit, you know it. Its nothing I could trick myself into. I can only come close to explaining it by telling you it was like being filled up with light and being wrapped up in a blanket at the same time. Theres nothing else like it.

I am not saying that praying is not a good thing to do, but I prefer to place my spiritual eternal destiny decisions based on pray and careful study of the scriptures and verifiable evidences that support my conclusions.

Can I trust my heart?
Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Because we are sinful, we can be swayed by our emotions and sinful desires.
To believe something is true merely because we feel it to be so is no guarantee of truth.
Therefore, such a test would never be condoned by the Bible.
Proverbs 14:12 tells us, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
God's word tells us we can deceive ourselves.

Knowing that Satan has many powers, how do you ensure that the "feeling" you get is from God and that you are not being tricked from the devil?

[_scripturesearcher]

Sounds like you're not looking for answers, only reasons to doubt.

I commend you TygerFang for your efforts and courage to do everything in your power to determine your own eternity.
I think it is great that someone is actually investigating their religion from multiple points of view for themselves instead of just taking someones else's option as fact.

No true church should try to keep its members from investigating it from other perspectives unless it has something to hide.

The truth does not have to hide, only lies must stay hidden to appear true.

[_larrya]

Hi,

I'm brand new to the board- although I have posted on others - but not for some months.

I am a 60ish man and doctrinally an Evangelical Christian - though I do not presently attend church.

Posting to forums like this helps me in my own spiritual life - it gives me an outlet that helps me personally.

I have been fairly good at doing research into things that interest me and have the resources to do quite a bit of investigation in to Mormon history and controversies.

However, lately I don't have the time , energy or interest to do that.

My interest at this time is merely to study the Bible and renew my own faith.

But posting helps me -

That said, here goes:

It sounds like your parents are admirable people.

And that they have worked very hard to raise you according to everything right and true according to their own understanding.

You apparently have questions - or are beginning to have questions -
that could seriously strain your relationships - not just with your parents - but with a great deal else in your life.

You are on the thresshold of something that could change your whole world.

You probably already know that.

But truth is precious and there is something in us that demands or presses us until - if we fail to arrive at all of it - at least we must be satisfied that we are on a path or THE path ( if we can find it) that will satisfy and lead to its perhaps gradual and continuois unfolding.

For me the path is Christ and the way to know Him is through the Bible -
carefully interpreted according to the same rules that allow for the proper interpretation of other literature.

For me God is truth and truth is consistant.

I believe in progressive revelation - that God has given us revelation a little at a time - until we had the whole Bible - the whole of the revelation God wants us to know.

There has been an unfolding of the revelation but it builds in a consistant way with no radical changes.

See 1 Samuel chapter 28

The story of the woman of Endor raising up the spirit of Samuel.

Read the story and think about it.

Pray first and try to interpret it and ask the same kind sof questions as you would if you were going to write an essay for school.

In fact, I think it would be a good idea if you got yourself a special diary that you could keep in a safe place - or a computer file that could be password protected - insure your privacy - take special care to do that -so you can track your spiritual journey - whatever it might be -

but read the passage and think about it - try to do that from a few different viewpoints - from Samuel's, for instance, and write the essay -then tell your mother that you love her and see if you can discuss that passage together.

Follow the same procedures for your other questions.

For whtever questions you have - try to find the Bible passages first, read and think according to the way you have been taught to interpret literature - start with the Bible because that was the first revelation -
treat the passages in the Standard Works the same way.

Try to be as loving, as respectful as you can be when you discuss these things with your parents or others.

Allow yourself to slowly and carefully arrive at your own conclusions.

If they question that - tell them you have agency.

Learn all you can on that subject from the LDS point of view and be prepared to defend yourself on that basis - useing your proof texts from the Standard Works and the words of the authorities.

Hope some of this helps.

I have disclosed my biases and have tried to accurately depict myself.

Please factor that in as you consider the worth of my suggestions.

LarryA

[_CaliforniaKid]

Dear TygerFang,

Since the time of Freud and Jung, it has been well known that dreams can be expressions of subconscious anxieties. Your mother might not even have noticed that you were straying from the righteous path at a conscious level, but if she even picked up clues at a subconscious one, she might have dreams of this kind. It should also be noted that even the most honest believers may omit or even deliberately forget details from their dreams that don't make sense, and may exaggerate how "real" they felt or how profound or specific the experience was.

The same can be said for "impressions". If you say or do something that seems to hint at your unbelief, your mother might well feel a sudden anxiety or insight or even have a waking dream in which a dead relative is speaking to her. This is much more likely to happen during times of exhaustion, intoxication, entrancement, emotional or physical distress, mental instability, or high fever, but it can certainly happen to normal people under normal circumstances, as well. Entrancement, moreover, can be induced by prayer or deep meditation: a sort of self-hypnosis.

As a Pentecostal, I had a vision and a half-dozen experiences in which I heard (actually "felt" might be a better word) God speak to me. I now believe that those experiences came from within myself, and looking back at them I can see indications of that that I wouldn't have shared with you back when I was still a true believer (even though I was and am a very honest person). For what it's worth, two of my experiences suggested that God doesn't particularly care what religion you're a part of, Mormon or otherwise. That's what I believe today, albeit on the authority of my own reasoning rather than of those seemingly supernatural impressions.

Good luck on your journey,

-Chris

[_aussieguy55]

Chris, would you be at Fowler's stage 6 of faith - Universalizing Faith? Read pages 199-201. I read something C S Lewis write in his book A Grief Observed He sais Five senses; an incurably abstract intellect; a haphazardly selective memory; a set or preconceptions and assumptions so numerous that I can never examine more than a minority of them - never become even consicious of them all. How much of total reality can such an apparatus let through" I came from a throughly conservative Lutheran church (we are the only church that teaches the Word of God in its truth and purity), a long stint in the Mormon church and some time withan AOG church. I definatly had an experience of being slain in the spirit, I was not pushed. However there were things on the fringes of the movement (Hinn etc) that disturbed me. I found a mildly charismatic Anglican church that considered both the Spirit and the intellect as valuable. I understand where this young woman is coming from. Because she does not repeat the same thoughts etc of faith her mother is worried. I had a dream once, where I was looking at these different groups of people from different churches and remember in the dream God saying "These (the Mormons) are my people to" So her mother is not the only one who can dream

[_larrya]

I agree with Chris.

Also a Bible study of visitations from the dead only occurred in !Samuel 28.

28:3 mediums and the spiritists. By divine law, they were banned from Israel (Deut. 18:11), and Israel was not to be defiled by them (Lev. 19:31). Turning to them was tantamount to playing the harlot and would result in God setting His face against the person and cutting him off from among His people (Lev. 20:6). Mediums and spiritists were to be put to death by stoning (Lev. 20:27). Even Saul understood this and had previously dealt with the issue (see v. 9).

MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed.) (1 Sa 28:3). Nashville: Word Pub.28:15 disturbed me. Samuel’s comment expresses agitation caused by Saul’s efforts to contact him since living humanity was not allowed to seek out discussions with the dead (Deut. 18:11; Lev. 20:6). Witchcraft puts the seeker in contact with demons impersonating those who are being sought, since the dead person cannot ordinarily be contacted, except in this unique case.
MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed.) (1 Sa 28:15). Nashville: Word Pub.


The New Testament story of lazarus and the rich man seems to me to confirm that the living do not actually have communications from the dead.

Believers will experience full felowship with each other when our salvation is complete.

people thinking they have visitations - I see that as pschological and emotional events - spiritists are either phonies or are in contact with demonic beings -

In this apssage all of the characters were disturbed - even the spiritist -
she probably as amuch because Samuel's rising was as unique in her experience as well - not anything like what she had experienced previously.

That's my view, anyway.

I choose the passage to see if I could illustrate that the Bible is consistent in its teachings.

Larry

[_ludwigm]

...
the Bible is consistent in its teachings.
Larry

The same as Hans Christian Andersen. (see "Contemporary literary and artistic works inspired by Andersen's stories" there)