curious about Mormonthink

[_loves2sing]

A newbie here... wanting to learn about LDS community. My 15-year-old daughter has joined the church.

I'd be interested to hear pros & cons about "Mormonthink," to quote Dr. Shades - which I'm thinking means the Mormon paradigm, or world view.

Links to previous postings (or topics) would be appreciated, too, if you think they'd help me learn about this.

Thanks,
Cynthia

[_Inconceivable]

A newbie here... wanting to learn about LDS community. My 15-year-old daughter has joined the church.

I'd be interested to hear pros & cons about "Mormonthink," to quote Dr. Shades - which I'm thinking means the Mormon paradigm, or world view.

Links to previous postings (or topics) would be appreciated, too, if you think they'd help me learn about this.

Thanks,
Cynthia

Hi loves2sing,

I am now in my mid 40's and have been a dedicated member all of my life until just a few years ago. My family tree is Mormon to about 5 generations.

It wasn't until about 3 1/2 years ago that I began to study the rest of the history about the church. I was deaply offended by the duplicitous behavior of it's founders and the whitewash that has subsequently followed for the last 150 years. This knowledge destroyed my faith in the revelations they claimed to have received from the God I thought I knew.

I left the church (resigned) last year. I decided to be true to myself first. The church and particularly it's history did not represent my attempt at a peaceable walk, neither did I represent it. It has been a difficult road since my wife, children, community and nearly my entire life was about Mormonism.

The church officially takes an all or nothing perspective on many issues - something I now consider very narrow minded and ethnocentric. I also believe that the church does not teach the principle of repentance and the miracle of forgiveness that Jesus taught - even as it is taught from their own book, the Book of Mormon.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1519&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
(by the way, to preface the above thread, Kimball was one of the church's apostles and prophet who died about 20 years ago. When a member approaches their bishop to confess a sin of a sexual nature, or a grevious sin in general, historically they have been told to read this book to understand the concept of repentance. This book is the epitomy of mormonthink and very disturbing on many levels)

Harmony gave some terrific references as well in your other thread.

All the best in your quest for truth and peace.

inc.

[_loves2sing]

Thanks for sharing this, Inc.

And thanks for the link to that topic. Wow... I read through it once, will want to return... That's one of the deepest discussions I've found online, in my searching about LDS beliefs and community.

How has your thinking evolved, in the couple of years since you were posting in that thread?

Which book(s) or other sources were most helpful in your research of LDS history? There's so much out there, often contradicting other sources; it's challenging to know what to read at first, what to save for later, etc.

And - let me know if this is getting too personal - would you be willing to say more about your decision to resign? And about how things have been going with your wife, children, and community since you resigned last year?

Thanks,
Cynthia

[_cinepro]

Hi Cynthia.

If you're just curious about who and what the "Mormons" are now that your daughter has joined, there are lots of "entry level" resources to introduce you to the church.

If you just want an overview of the history, I would recommend starting with the Church's official "beginner's guide" called Our Heritage. This is the short version of the history, scrubbed up and made presentable, but it's a good place to start to get an idea of who the people and places are in Mormon history. Once you know the basics, if you are interested in the "warts and all" history, you can come back here and ask more specific questions.

If you want to know what will be expected of your daughter, or what kind of a lifestyle she will be encouraged to live, get a copy of "For the Strength of the Youth." (Both "Our Heritage" and "For the Strength of the Youth" can be ordered from those websites, or your local LDS Bishop will give you a free copy if you ask. Or have your daughter ask him for you.)

If you're wondering what, exactly, she is learning every week in the "Young Women's Program" (the Sunday classes for girls), the lessons are taken from a Church published manual that is online here. There is a blog where women discuss the lessons and whether there is anything "concerning" or interesting in the weekly lessons here.

There is a ton of information at the Church website (LDS.org); more than you could read in a lifetime. And it has a pretty good search function. You won't find any of the "warts" though, the Church is very picky about what kind of information it presents to the world.

As has been mentioned, the thing you want to prepare yourself for is that if you don't join the Church as well, you won't be able to attend the actual wedding ceremony if your daughter gets married in the Temple. And she will be under a lot of pressure to get married in the Temple! So you've got a few years to think about that.

As far as learning about "the community", every ward/congregation is different. And every ward has all kinds of people, from annoying zealots to the real salt-of-the-earth stalwarts. While there are bad apples in every bunch, LDS teenage girls are taught to strictly avoid alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, and pre-marital sex; on those points alone, it's hard to argue against having a daughter in the Church. The ward should have regular social functions that you can attend and get to know people in a more casual setting.

[_loves2sing]

Thanks, Cinepro.

I've visited some of those links; others are new to me. Thanks for taking the time to put them into a post.

It's easy to get lost following link after link, and it's easy to see a lot of the critical (and even anti-mormon) material that way, without having the foundation knowledge to really understand it. So thanks for
pointing me back toward the church's site.

I actually want to approach this with an open mind and an open heart... Although, as I wrote in the "concerns and appreciations" thread, I have some very strong reasons why I don't think I could ever accept the "one and only true church" doctrine.

As has been mentioned, the thing you want to prepare yourself for is that if you don't join the Church as well, you won't be able to attend the actual wedding ceremony if your daughter gets married in the Temple. And she will be under a lot of pressure to get married in the Temple! So you've got a few years to think about that.

Let's hope I have quite a few more years. She's only 15!

(I'm tempted to make a snide remark about no one marrying 15-year-olds these days. Was that out-of-the-ordinary at the time when Joseph Smith did it?)

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks for sharing this, Inc.

And thanks for the link to that topic. Wow... I read through it once, will want to return... That's one of the deepest discussions I've found online, in my searching about LDS beliefs and community.

I just finished re-reading it myself. Yeah, I'd like to see more discussions like that on a more regular basis. There are several threads like that one around that time worth looking up.

How has your thinking evolved, in the couple of years since you were posting in that thread?

I feel more at peace with myself. Spiritually I am dormant, perhaps due to the anger over feelings of betrayal. Mormonism isn't just a lifestyle, it is your life.

Without going into any detail, perhaps much spiritual experience comes by way of those closest to us that have passed on. Countless NDE's (near death experiences) detail much about the character of those that greet us when we cross over.

Which book(s) or other sources were most helpful in your research of LDS history? There's so much out there, often contradicting other sources; it's challenging to know what to read at first, what to save for later, etc.

What turned me from my belief in the Mormon church was Joseph Smith's blatant disregard and solemn mockery of the institution of marriage. Sacred vows that stand to hold the very fabric of the family and civilized society together.

I felt mostly betrayed by learning of Joseph Smith's secret life. The first books I read attempted to vindicate him. They were written by his son Joseph III and others that belonged to the RLDS church. I was almost convinced that he was never a polygamist and a moral man. You see, Smith publically and vehemently denied the doctrine of plural marriage, spiritual wifery etc. His wife, Emma, denied he ever practiced it. While he yet lived, the Relief Society (Emma as president) produced an affidavit that stated that the church rejected the teaching of polygamy. But in truth, at the time, Smith was engaging in the practice with even some of the women that signed the affidavit.

In my opinion, as it's founder, Smith's infidelities invalidate nearly everything unique to the Mormon church.

I'd suggest first reading, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Linda Newell and Valeen Avery.

And - let me know if this is getting too personal - would you be willing to say more about your decision to resign? And about how things have been going with your wife, children, and community since you resigned last year?

Thanks,
Cynthia

My beautiful wife is extremely lonely, embarrassed and humiliated that she is seen attending particularly sacrament meeting mostly by herself. She resents the stigma of being married to an apostate, a man that, just a few years ago was respected by everyone that she knew.

Our two youngest, 16 & 19, attend with her when they get up on time, but don't enjoy the thought of what their freinds and others are thinking when they glance at them. Our two oldest, one an RM, do not attend anymore. It has been very difficult for all of them.

In retrospect, I would still make the same decision. I can't live a lie or represent one.

[_loves2sing]

Interesting new example of "Mormonthink":

When my daughter was deciding whether or not to be baptized (it took her about 4 months), the missionaries and other LDS members told her that Satan would be trying extra hard, during this time of deciding, to encourage her to doubt her faith.

Once she made the decision to be baptized, and was just waiting for the appointed day to arrive, the missionaries and other LDS members told her that Satan would be trying extra hard, during this time of waiting, to encourage her to doubt her faith.

Since she was baptized and then confirmed (about 5 weeks ago), the missionaries and other LDS members have been telling her that Satan is now trying extra hard, during this time of learning to attend to the presence of the Holy Ghost, to encourage her to doubt her faith.

Apparently Satan is always trying extra hard... Apparently doubts are always to be mistrusted, and the "right" thing to do is always to push them aside, let them go, and pray for a stronger faith.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Dear loves2sing:

I'm a professor at the Church's Brigham Young University, in Provo, Utah, and the bishop of a single young adult ward (congregation) of the Church located adjacent to the public Utah Valley University. I've also written rather extensively on Mormon topics and am the president-elect of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology.

If you would like to send any questions to me at daniel_peterson@BYU.edu, I'll do my best to answer them as my schedule permits.

With best wishes,

Dan Peterson

[_DrW]

Cynthia,

If you are interested in MormonThink, you should probably not depend only on literature from the Mormon Church.

You might want to look at more objective literature as well. Because Mormonism is so controversial (and for good reason), there is plenty of literature out there. I hope that you will look at both sides. As you do, please consider the motivations behind the authors in all cases.

I left a post for you on another (older) thread concerning your daughter. With regard to MormonThink, I recently wrote a detailed piece about the "magical thinking" aspect of the Mormon mindset (in which I was involved for several decades).

Below are a few excerpts. If you are interested, there is a link to the full article at the end of this post. Prof. Peterson has provide you some information about his credentials. You will find mine at the end of the article at the link shown below. Briefly, I was married in the temple as were all of my children, I hold a Ph.D. in neuroendocrinology and am a co-founder of two successful technology companies, one in the US and one overseas.

The excerpts and link follow.

(Thanks for looking at both sides.)
______________________________________________
MAGICAL THINKING AND WHY FACTS MATTER

This piece was part personal story and part cautionary tale. It concerned the risks to individuals, and to society in general, from the use of “magical thinking” as the basis for a worldview and consequent decision-making. The term magical thinking is intended to denote a particularly irrational type of faith (faith being defined as “belief without evidence”).

It is the kind of thinking rampant in Mormon culture, wherein otherwise intelligent and often well educated people are willing to proclaim simultaneous believe in diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive concepts (creation and evolution being just one of many example sets).

According to Mormon magical thinking, “revelation”, or “proclamation by an authority holding proper keys” is deemed sufficient for one to accept the validity of a proposition based on its source alone. This irrationality is often justified by the idea that sympathetic supernatural forces are ultimately in control. Therefore, no physical or other corroborating evidence of any kind is required. Any evidence contrary to the revealed “truth” is simply ignored.

Thus, magical thinking goes beyond “belief without evidence” to the point of “belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary”. A case in point is the widespread belief in the divinity and historicity of the Book of Abraham, as contained in the Pearl of Great Price. This unfounded belief persists in spite of the fact that the papyri from which the book was supposedly translated have been shown to be Egyptian funerary text from the now well known “Book of Breathings”. The claimed source of the Book of Abraham, in fact, has nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham.

Here is the link to the rest of the article, entitled, "Magical Thinking and Why Facts Matter"

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Magical_Thinking_and_Why_Facts_Matter/

[_Daniel Peterson]

I am, by the way, entirely serene about your reading an atheist's or agnostic's take on Mormonism. I myself am interested in reading what DrW has to say.

Perhaps, if you yourself incline toward theism, you'll find his position just as challenging to your worldview as he intends it to be to mine.

But if you're interested in the perspective of a believing, practicing, reasonably well-informed Latter-day Saint, I can help supply that.