Base matter and the Light of Christ

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

So now you're saying Peter, James and John were angels prior to their receiving earthly bodies? CFR. Now. (and please try to remember that there are scriptures I don't accept.)

Whens the last time you actually attended an endowment ceremony?

No one stands between me and God, Gaz. No one.

Does that include your Mediator?

Address the statement as it's written, Gaz, not as you wish it was.

The LDS wife, in a very real sense, is the gateway to godhood for her husband. The family is the key element in our theology, and it is the woman who carries the key of life. Without the woman a man cannot produce offspring in the eternities, and he has no exaltation without her. As the veil of the temple represents the doorway to the celestial kingdom, so the veil of the woman represents the doorway to exaltation. A Celestial woman is an awesome thing to behold, and as such she is veiled.

You are entitled to your own inspiration. You are NOT entitled to tell me what MY inspiration tells me. Not now, not ever.

When you seek to turn a principle of the gospel on its ear and interpret it as a damning thing, I will do all I can to set you straight. There is no principle of the gospel that seeks to do any other thing than to build up and exalt those that would adhere to it.

This does not track. Water and fire are physical elements and can be felt, seen, tasted, smelled, and heard. Souls are not part of the physical elements and therefore cannot be tested the same way the physical elements are.

You're mixing apples and iron, Gaz. Try again.

Spirit is matter Harmony. You know this. D&C 131:7-8

The priesthood is a capricious thing; it works sometimes and doesn't work others.

The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness" (D&C 121:36).

[_Gazelam]

Bob,

1) Fear sometimes means respect so the angels may have respected Adam.

I agree, I just changed fear to awe when I read it.

All angels who visited prior to Christ's resurrection were without bodies.

I disagree. Peter James and John had bodies of some sort when they visited Adam and Eve, and the angels who visited Abraham did as well.

[_harmony]

Harmony,
Whens the last time you actually attended an endowment ceremony?

That would be last Tuesday. My point, Gaz, is that there is no scriptural foundation for that.

No one stands between me and God, Gaz. No one.

Does that include your Mediator?

My Mediator IS God. Who is yours? The prophet? Your bishop?

Address the statemenat as it's written, Gaz, not as you wish it was.

The LDS wife, in a very real sense, is the gateway to godhood for her husband. The family is the key element in our theology, and it is the woman who carries the key of life. Without the woman a man cannot produce offspring in the eternities, and he has no exaltation without her. As the veil of the temple represents the doorway to the celestial kingdom, so the veil of the woman represents the doorway to exaltation. A Celestial woman is an awesome thing to behold, and as such she is veiled.

CFR, Gaz. (I just refrained from calling this unadulterated hogwash, but I can resurrect that comment, if you ignore this. I want to see where you're getting this.)

When you seek to turn a principle of the gospel on its ear and interpret it as a damning thing, I will do all I can to set you straight. There is no principle of the gospel that seeks to do any other thing than to build up and exalt those that would adhere to it.

You might want to read up on a little thing called "personal inspiration", Gaz. You have no stewardship, and you sure as heck don't receive inspiration for me, so do NOT think you can interpret the gospel for me. And anything having to do with Sec 132 IS a damning thing, tainted by Joseph's sin.

Spirit is matter Harmony. You know this. D&C 131:7-8

Then produce it for scientific study.

The priesthood is a capricious thing; it works sometimes and doesn't work others.

The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness" (D&C 121:36).

So why don't the Brethren control it?

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

Your obstinance dishonors you.

My Mediator IS God. Who is yours? The prophet? Your bishop?

Christ stands between you and the Father, does this upset you?

CFR, Gaz. (I just refrained from calling this unadulterated hogwash, but I can resurrect that comment, if you ignore this. I want to see where you're getting this.)

Part of the ancient Hebrew concept of a betrothed women was that she represented a holy temple. This is why she was veiled. Since, according to Paul, the glory of God is the glory of man and a woman is the glory of man, then to a man the women should represent the glory of God. The woman was created for man as a holy temple. Like a temple, the veiled women represents the presence or holiness of God.

A famous veil reference in the scriptures is that of Moses having to veil his face before the house of Israel after having communed with the Lord, the house of Israel not being able to endure Moses’ presence in essence. The other veil is of course the veil of the temple with the most exalted or divine space being behind the veil from the perspective of the majority of the population.

An interesting sidenote: In the Kabbalah, the feminine aspect of God (represented by the Menora in the temple) was veiled when the temple was ransacked and defiled by invaders.

[_Jersey Girl]

harm,

Can you translate Gaz's comments into "Baptist" for me? I'm not following what he's telling me. The post he made about eternal truths to which you replied just above?

I'm serious about the translation.

[_harmony]

Harmony,

Your obstinance dishonors you.

Gaz, you invited me to this thread. I am not here to be condemned or called to repentence by you (or anyone else). If you cannot discuss the subject of the thread without bringing your inability to allow me to worship as my personal inspiration dictates, then I'll bow out of the discussion. I feel no need to discuss my thoughts with someone who condemns me for following my own inspiration, says I'm dishonorable, etc. I am entitled to my own inspiration based on my own relationship with God, and I am required by the prophets to decide how I implement their words in my life. I don't ever try to convince anyone that my way is the correct way for anyone else. My way is only the correct way for me.

Do not step over this line again; I will not allow you to attempt to exercise unrighteous dominion over me. You need to pull in your horns; I'm only trying to protect your priesthood, since you are bound and determined to overstep your stewardship (since you have none).

I am not here for you to convince me of the error of my way. I am here to offer my thoughts.

My Mediator IS God. Who is yours? The prophet? Your bishop?

Christ stands between you and the Father, does this upset you?

Umm.. Gaz? Christ IS God. Or did you forget that?

CFR, Gaz. (I just refrained from calling this unadulterated hogwash, but I can resurrect that comment, if you ignore this. I want to see where you're getting this.)

Part of the ancient Hebrew concept of a betrothed women was that she represented a holy temple. This is why she was veiled. Since, according to Paul, the glory of God is the glory of man and a woman is the glory of man, then to a man the women should represent the glory of God. The woman was created for man as a holy temple. Like a temple, the veiled women represents the presence or holiness of God.

Women are the same as men, with different plumbing. If the ancient Hebrews were so amazed at women, modern Mormons have no need to be. We know a bit more about the human condition than the ancients ever did. We don't have to make it up as we go along; we have actual knowledge to work from (not that our leaders are able to move past the ancient foolishness, but we have the tools, if they'd use them.)

Woman was created as a companion, a help meet, an equal, not as a holy temple. Woman has no need to sit on a pedestal designed to keep her from reaching her full potential... full potential as a human being, which is much more than motherhood. That "mystery" you speak of is manmade, not from God, and represents another instance where prophets used their own personal biases to filter God's words. (Paul's hatred of women is legendary.) And that same manmade filter is in place today, with the Proclamation on the Family.

Woman has no need to veil her face, to be hidden for any reason, even some ancient mystery.

A famous veil reference in the scriptures is that of Moses having to veil his face before the house of Israel after having communed with the Lord, the house of Israel not being able to endure Moses’ presence in essence. The other veil is of course the veil of the temple with the most exalted or divine space being behind the veil from the perspective of the majority of the population.

Immaterial (Moses in another myth) and unsubstantiated (give the reference, Gaz.)

An interesting sidenote: In the Kabbalah, the feminine aspect of God (represented by the Menora in the temple) was veiled when the temple was ransacked and defiled by invaders.

The menora is essentially a candlestick. We're talking reality, Gaz, not myth. Women veil their faces in the temple because it's tradition. And traditions not only can be changed, but should be changed when they are harmful (ie, the 1990 changes in the endowment). Respect for women should not be tied to their plumbing, anymore than respect for men should not be tied to their bank balance.

[_harmony]

Jersey,

Are you talking about laws of nature? The natural world?

Cartain truths are eternal and unchanging. Its simple for us to see that fire is fire, water is water. Just expand upon that to a universal level. Souls are eternal and can be exalted and strengthened by application of eternal laws. Nature responds to the command of a virtuous man, through His Priesthood and virtue God formed the worlds and organized spirits. He seeks to instruct us in these things if we would be obedient to his counsels.

Jersey, is this the post you're asking me to interpret?

[_Jersey Girl]

Yes, harm.

[_Yoda]

Hey, Gaz..

I know you are carrying on several different conversations here, but I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on my comments here:

Gazelam wrote:
Liz,

Quote:
I'm talking about the emotional intimacy that occurs between a husband and wife.


How many of us have an intimate relationship with the Holy Ghost? Do you have an intimate relationship with Christ? Do oyu hope to have one after you arrive in heaven?


Apples and oranges, Gaz. It's a different type of intimacy.

Let me expand on this further.

The emotional intimacy you have with your spouse differs from the emotional intimacy you have with your child, or your parent.

All are important, but they are very different.

I was always taught...and it is also reinforced in the Proclamation of the Family, that the relationship between husband and wife is THE most important intimacy. It is second only to the personal relationship one has with God.

However, if, as the plan of salvation indicates, we are all Gods in training, then, at some point, the relationship between husband and wife will even supercede the relationship that currently exists between God and man.

There is a partnership that exists between husband and wife that is hard to feasibly put into words. It is a two-way partnership. It involves decisions in raising children, in keeping deep confidences, in sharing your innermost thoughts....

Don't play dumb, Gaz. I KNOW you know what I'm talking about.

When you have a moment.

[_harmony]

For Jersey:

1. Gaz puts "souls" in the same physical box as water or fire. He thinks souls are made up of a physical substance. I'm not sure how much he thinks the soul weighs, but if he could convince my doc that it's my soul that needs to lose weight instead of my body, I'd be grateful.

2. Gaz thinks nature responds to the command of a virtuous priesthood holder. I'm not sure how he figures this, since we have absolutely no evidence (and the prophets certainly don't claim this) to support his assertion. Unless he thinks there have been no men righteous enough to command the elements since Moses parted the Red Sea?

3. Gaz thinks if we were just obedient enough, we'd know all this stuff like he does.