How much damage would this do?

[_Inconceivable]

Lighten up.

Don't lie about me, and don't treat me like I have trouble with the concept of walking erect. You know you just weren't thinking when you read what I wrote but don't have the stones to admit you were wrong after I pointed out the misrepresentation. You're no better than Scratch in that regard, and for that reason you'll be ignored.

So don't take the job.

In the mean time, I'll get you a Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaammbulance.

you anti-anti-mormon, you.

(by the way, cool avatar)

[_Dr. Shades]

You make $125,000.00+ per year as a grad student?

No, I make far less than that. I've also seen what their stipends look like. You've only seen the speculation of others equally as antagonistic and cynical as ajax.

No, I've read the account of a former independent auditor hired by the church.

A chairman and board members generally do not own a corporation outright, but they do control it. They have the power to allocate funds to purchase jets, fine company automobiles, homes, season tickets, Yachts, lavish vacations, private education for their children and friends at the best schools, furniture, the best insurance and retirement plans - all in the name of the corporation. The list of perks are literally endless (and legal too). . . How many houses do each of them live in, how much did each home cost and where are they located? BMW's, Mercedes, Bentleys? How many months out of the year do they spend in Hawaii? How much did tuition cost for a deadbeat son to attend Yale last year?

Let's be clear here: Are you saying that the FP/Q12 enjoy these perks thanks to their chairmanship of boards?

[_maklelan]

No, I've read the account of a former independent auditor hired by the church.

Independent auditing firms are only hired for the accounts of incorporated businesses owned by the church which are not tracked by the Finance and Records Department (which tracks tithing funds and their expenditure). If you actually did get an inappropriate look at auditing documents they didn't come near GA stipends.

[_Inconceivable]

A chairman and board members generally do not own a corporation outright, but they do control it. They have the power to allocate funds to purchase jets, fine company automobiles, homes, season tickets, Yachts, lavish vacations, private education for their children and friends at the best schools, furniture, the best insurance and retirement plans - all in the name of the corporation. The list of perks are literally endless (and legal too). . . How many houses do each of them live in, how much did each home cost and where are they located? BMW's, Mercedes, Bentleys? How many months out of the year do they spend in Hawaii? How much did tuition cost for a deadbeat son to attend Yale last year?

Let's be clear here: Are you saying that the FP/Q12 enjoy these perks thanks to their chairmanship of boards?

I'm saying that if want to see what is happening you have to look further than the FP/Q12. Look at how their children, associates and relatives live. Who is getting the contracts, who is chairing the corporations, What is it that the corporations own that they have access to.

I have no doubt that a few FP/Q12 are completely ignorant of how corporations operate. But the businessmen among them understand it.

Refering to businesses owned by the church, once again, it's not necessarily what a board member of one of these businesses owns, it's the power they have been given to allocate the companies assets to their benefit. If you have unlimited access to a house in the Hamptons, a company car or a yacht, who wants the aggravation of owning it? You don't even have to take care of it.

This is one of several reasons why transparency can be such a death nail to an organization that claims to be familiar with all and free with their substance. Recall the big 3 automakers flying in on G5's to beg congress for hundreds of millions. It appeared to everyone (but them) to be a terrible mismanagement of the allocation of funds didn't it? To them, it was an entitlement. They didn't even see they did anything wrong.

[_Jason Bourne]

How about the real reason? Some employees a few years back made trouble with the access they had to the books

This is simply not true. Rather it seems that the books were closed in the late 50s or early 60s when the Church ran large annual deficits mainly due to Henry Moyle's over extension on acquiring properties and building Churches. Because of the deficit the Church had a large push to increase tithing. It seems pushing to get more members to tithe when the Church was annually in the red was not going to work. So they closed the books. You can read about this in the book David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.

The reason you give is really nonsensical. Why would a few employees cause problems that requires closing the books to the whole Church? Who were they and what did they do? Why not just fire them?

[_Jason Bourne]

The Mormon church is a lay ministry church.

yep

What does this mean? It means that what you see from the outside are many busy bees gathering honey for the sum of the whole. MP's, SP's Bishops get no real monetary compensation for their services.

As far as I know Bishops and SPs get nothing at all monetarily for their service thought there is some opportunity to be reimbursed for travel that may be significant. I have never seen anyone use this however. MPs I think as Liz noted can get comensated for living expenses.

Even a BYU professor may think he's getting a little honey on the side by publishing some obscure book. This is the little money.

BYU Professors are compensated like any other professor at any other college. What has this got to do with anything here?

However, if you discover this MP is a board member of one of the church's corporations, or has a business that is awarded contracts by the church, this is the man that has learned how to open the windows of heaven.

Please provide dosumented examples of this.

Before Jason chimes in and cries foul, I'll also note that many in leadership are (and have been) successful businessmen without any perks from the church. I've known many of them having grown up in the wealthiest stake in the church.

Some are very successful. Some are not. Most that are have become such independent of the Church. It was not the Church that made them such.

by the way, the one GA I know personally was an attorney in his previous life. When I asked him once what he missed about his prior life he said at times the income. He made much less as a GA then a practicing attorney and in fact he uses Monday, his day off from GA duties, to do some legal work on the side to supplement his income from being a GA.

However, the First Presidency, most of the Quorem of the Twelve apostles (and many of the 70) know who the elitist subset is. This will be a closely guarded secret for as long as they can get away with it.

Just so you understand I am all for publishing financials and for disclosing what the top leaders are paid.

[_moksha]

Jason, at what level do the stipends and Church credit cards come into play?

[_Inconceivable]

Hi Jason,

If you would like documentation on how church corporations are run, the books are closed.

However, why would a Mormon church owned corporation function differently from all other corporations?

Please read over my posts if you'd like. Corporate control vs ownership is a foreign concept to most. Case in point. Did Br. Huntsman give the church a Lear jet or did his corporation allocate funds for the lease of a Lear jet to be used by the FP? Did it cost him a dime? Probably not. But his corpoation got some major Goodwill and a hellacious tax break. I have no problem with this. What do think the jet was used for before it was allocated to the church? Check the jet's log and you may discover it went to some pretty exotic locations on the planet. No doubt, it doesn't remain in a hanger unutilized between ribbon cuttings.

The church owned corporations are no different than Huntsman's corporation. Why would they be? Where have their jets been to? Keep in mind, where their jets go, what homes they own, vacations for board members is totally legal. But it sure doesn't look good to the poor that pay tithing to purchase these businesses.

On a side note, it would have been just as easy for one of the church owned corporations to allocate a jet to the FP. But how dumb would that be for them to open up the corp's board members to scrutiny?

Anyways, I'm feeling a little pooped beating this very dead horse.

[_badseed]

Just so you understand I am all for publishing financials and for disclosing what the top leaders are paid.

Agree. One would think that it's a no-brainer because if there is nothing crazy going on it would take most of the wind outta the criticism.

Anyone know about the placement of GAs on boards of companies owned by the Church. Does it happen and what the financial implications/rewards if any?

[_bcspace]

I've known many of them having grown up in the wealthiest stake in the church.

Palos Verdes?