Prop 8

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_ajax18
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _ajax18 »

JoetheClerk wrote:"The "family" is weakened by the frivolous usage of the institution--making it less special, less dignified."

Can it be any 'less dignified' than now with so many divorced, on third partners and whatever?


I think you're right, and the fact is that contrary to the New Testament, we have people who have been sealed, divorced, and resealed 2 to 3 times in LDS temples. Jesus himself said that he who marries her who is divorced commiteth adultery. It's as if nowadays nearly everyone just pretends He didn't say that.

I tend to agree with the Catholics on divorce. I think divorce should be outlawed, as do many people forced to grow up under rotten stepmarriages. I'm not sure that marriage has any ultimate meaning or consequence at all now that we have "no fault" divorce. If western family law truly held the interests of the child above the mother and father, divorce would be outlawed. As far as I'm concerned rights are prioritized in this manner, 1. the mother, 2. the child, 3. the father. But who is the bitch of the relationship amongst gays? I almost enjoy wathcing those family court battles much more than the traditional ones where the womens interest takes precedence. What if it's two women fighting? That's more of a fair fight, and its outcome is not as easy to predict.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_The Nehor
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _The Nehor »

JoetheClerk wrote:"The "family" is weakened by the frivolous usage of the institution--making it less special, less dignified."

Can it be any 'less dignified' than now with so many divorced, on third partners and whatever?


I don't think the best solution is to euthanize the patient.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
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_bcspace
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _bcspace »

Is it children who would potentially be raised by homosexual parents?


And the children who would potentially see their bad example. Not to mention the legitimization of a dangerous and deadly lifestyle.

I don't understand California. They're so far left that neither party campaigned there. Yet they pass proposition 8?


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_haleray
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _haleray »

ajax18 wrote:Ok a little delirious now but something this outlandish should not require much mental effort. I opined that I thought the Church was uncharacteristically concerned on an on the gay marriage issue because they saw it as a slippery slope. Once gay marrigae is legal, coerced solemnization of gay marriage in LDS temples will follow.

My TBM friends corrctecd me. He retorted that it was the Church trying to protect the family. What about the family are they protectin?. Is it children who would potentially be raised by homosexual parents? Why is the Church so adamant about this one?

I don't understand California. They're so far left that neither party campaigned there. Yet they pass proposition 8?

Why is everyone afraid of the Church being forced to do gay marriages in the temple? If there was a law that forced all people that performed legal marriages to perform gay marriages, then the Church will have temple sealers NOT legal marriage performers, like in some countries, where people have to go to the court house to get a marriage license AND go to the temple to get sealed. Gays MIGHT be able to force Bishops to perform their marriages, but NEVER at the temple.
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

haleray wrote:Gays MIGHT be able to force Bishops to perform their marriages

Not unless other law is drastically changed. Divorcees cannot force Catholic priests to perform their marriages. Unrepentant alcoholics cannot force Mormon Bishops to perform their marriages. Gays in Massachusetts are not able to force Mormon Bishops to perform their marriages. The argument is a complete non-starter.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Paracelsus
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _Paracelsus »

haleray wrote:
ajax18 wrote:Ok a little delirious now but something this outlandish should not require much mental effort. I opined that I thought the Church was uncharacteristically concerned on an on the gay marriage issue because they saw it as a slippery slope. Once gay marrigae is legal, coerced solemnization of gay marriage in LDS temples will follow.

My TBM friends corrctecd me. He retorted that it was the Church trying to protect the family. What about the family are they protectin?. Is it children who would potentially be raised by homosexual parents? Why is the Church so adamant about this one?

I don't understand California. They're so far left that neither party campaigned there. Yet they pass proposition 8?

Why is everyone afraid of the Church being forced to do gay marriages in the temple? If there was a law that forced all people that performed legal marriages to perform gay marriages, then the Church will have temple sealers NOT legal marriage performers, like in some countries, where people have to go to the court house to get a marriage license AND go to the temple to get sealed. Gays MIGHT be able to force Bishops to perform their marriages, but NEVER at the temple.


Like in sane countries.
I know of nothing poorer
Under the sun, than you, you Gods!
...
Should I honour you? Why?

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_Valentinus
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _Valentinus »

1) Because God said so, either in the Bible or by a Latter-day prophet


The Bible is an interesting book because what you read is not always what is meant. Malakotoi and Arsenokotai (sp) of the Greek New Testament are the equivalent of a feminine call boy. As for the Old Testament, the story of Sodom is not a valid argument (ref. Ezekiel) and the Holiness Code in Leviticus was meant for a specific people at a specific time.

I would like to reference the complaint made to George A. Smith when he was LDS president. The presiding Bishopric was creating a teaching manual that stated "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done." This line of narcissism and arrogance is a faith destroyer. Even in their own capacity and calling the LDS authorities, just as the ancient church leaders, are qualified to be criticized and analyzed. Neglect Dallin Oaks' remarks on criticism.

2) Slippery slope argument (If we allow gay people to marry, soon we'll have to let polygamists marry and then people to marry their dogs and houseplants)


Agreed. This is a weak argument and should be eliminated from validity.

3) If homosexual marriage is elevated to a legitimized, legal status, then it will be seen as okay or even preferable to people (esp children). Then people would be gay who otherwise wouldn't have been. This may as well lead to a decrease in the births of children, and as Spencer W. Kimball once said, if everyone were gay, the entire earth's population would cease in a generation.


So what? In the words of comedian Wanda Sykes: "If you're against gay marriage then don't marry someone of the same sex!" Status quo and societal norms are part of social breakdowns. This is revealed in history.

4) If homosexual relationships are given legally-protected status, it would enable homosexual parents to adopt children. And, according to some, children are not as well off in homosexual households.


According to some. From some psychological organizations, there is seen no difference. by the way, why shouldn't a child be allowed a home with 2 loving parents whether it be M/F, F/F, M/M?

5) Homosexual marriages and recognition thereof would be forced on church organizations (homosexuals must marry in the temple).


The church is a privately funded institution with lay clergy. It does not receive funding from governmental institutions and is not subjected to publicly and governmentally funded laws. Gay marriage will stay out of the temples unless the church were to decide otherwise.

6) The "family" is weakened by the frivolous usage of the institution--making it less special, less dignified.


This is a mere insult to gay families. Heterosexuals are doing a bang up job all on their own at making the 'family' less dignified.

Did I miss any? But it's important to note that, for Mormons, there is no need to defend their position with a logical discussion or reasoning to back it up. First of all, the prophet's word should be enough, and second, when you're committed to what you have a testimony of, there isn't need to be critical of your position--in fact you shouldn't be critically analyzing your beliefs a la Rene Descartes because that's not faith, that's not testimony.


Once again, LDS authorities are not infallible or inerrant in confernce talks or articles. It is important to understand that they do not carry with them benevolence at all times. Even inspiration can be misunderstood and then mistranslated to the church membership.

Valentinus
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
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_hobart
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _hobart »

Valentinus wrote:
1) Because God said so, either in the Bible or by a Latter-day prophet


The Bible is an interesting book because what you read is not always what is meant. . . .

Valentinus


I think I wrote what you responded to.....it sounds like something I would say. I was honestly playing the devil's advocate (I hate that term by the way). For gay people who want the legal status of marriage, to understand how to work with the Mormons and other Christians is key to coming to a compromise. I think it's all very simple. One of the major concerns I've heard is that gay people will be forced to marry in temples. I'm not sure why they're performing legal ceremonies in sacred buildings in the first place, but Mormons already discriminate against many people for temple marriages. Only a select few are allowed to marry in their temples... but, believe it or not, there's actually a vibrant fear amongst those against gay marriage that gay people will be forced to be allowed to marry in churches and temples. Go figure: the voting power is given to the uninformed majority.
_Valentinus
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _Valentinus »

hobart wrote:I think I wrote what you responded to.....it sounds like something I would say. I was honestly playing the devil's advocate (I hate that term by the way). For gay people who want the legal status of marriage, to understand how to work with the Mormons and other Christians is key to coming to a compromise. I think it's all very simple. One of the major concerns I've heard is that gay people will be forced to marry in temples. I'm not sure why they're performing legal ceremonies in sacred buildings in the first place, but Mormons already discriminate against many people for temple marriages. Only a select few are allowed to marry in their temples... but, believe it or not, there's actually a vibrant fear amongst those against gay marriage that gay people will be forced to be allowed to marry in churches and temples. Go figure: the voting power is given to the uninformed majority.


Okay, I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. Why would they be forced to marry in the temple? Or are you actually saying that the church would be forced to allow their marriages in the temple? What ceremonies are being performed in sacred buildings?

Valentinus
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt
_hobart
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Re: Prop 8

Post by _hobart »

Valentinus wrote:
hobart wrote:I think I wrote what you responded to.....it sounds like something I would say. I was honestly playing the devil's advocate (I hate that term by the way). For gay people who want the legal status of marriage, to understand how to work with the Mormons and other Christians is key to coming to a compromise. I think it's all very simple. One of the major concerns I've heard is that gay people will be forced to marry in temples. I'm not sure why they're performing legal ceremonies in sacred buildings in the first place, but Mormons already discriminate against many people for temple marriages. Only a select few are allowed to marry in their temples... but, believe it or not, there's actually a vibrant fear amongst those against gay marriage that gay people will be forced to be allowed to marry in churches and temples. Go figure: the voting power is given to the uninformed majority.


Okay, I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. Why would they be forced to marry in the temple? Or are you actually saying that the church would be forced to allow their marriages in the temple? What ceremonies are being performed in sacred buildings?

Valentinus



In the United States, religious ceremonies, officiated by clergy, can double as church-recognized sacraments and government-recognized civil ceremonies...I don't know why that is. In certain parts of Western Europe, couples are required to marry in public and by a civil servant (not a private religious leader), then they can have their temple ceremony. And yes, this is a concern for many Latter-day Saints--that if gays marry, what's to stop the church from being forced to marry gays in their temples? I realize it's an uneducated and insane thing to wrap your mind around, but this is what is believed by some who are voting for things like Prop 8!
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