Punitiveness and the TBM

[_Yoda]

My version of Christianity is based on worshiping a loving God. I think the message of the New Testament was one of mercy tempering justice, if not outright trumping it. I want the Church to be on a loving course rather than a punitive one. I want a God that showers us with love unconditionally like an idealized parent, rather than a taskmaster handing out demerits.

Your notion of the New Testament message contradicts it as it ignores what Jesus has said in many places therein regarding punishment (such as Matthew 25:41) and focuses only on that which you agree with. Mercy and justice do not rob each other and you hear both spoken of in the LDS Church.

Once again, BC, you are smugly quoting a single scripture out of context. Let's take a look at the entire reference:

31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is one of my favorite scriptural passages, by the way. It is a beautiful example of how Jesus expects us to serve him. His message is that the best way to serve Christ is to serve each other.

Hence, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Yes, the punishment is mentioned...but the punishment is not the focus of the passage. The punishment, as horrible as it is described, is something that can be easily avoided. All we have to do is serve each other as if we are serving the Lord.

[_moksha]

Hence, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Yes, the punishment is mentioned...but the punishment is not the focus of the passage. The punishment, as horrible as it is described, is something that can be easily avoided. All we have to do is serve each other as if we are serving the Lord.

What a powerful passage it is Liz. It helps define how we should behave in our approach to one another. Do you think there could be a punishment for punitiveness in our thoughts and behavior toward each other?


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[_Yoda]

Hence, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Yes, the punishment is mentioned...but the punishment is not the focus of the passage. The punishment, as horrible as it is described, is something that can be easily avoided. All we have to do is serve each other as if we are serving the Lord.

What a powerful passage it is Liz. It helps define how we should behave in our approach to one another. Do you think there could be a punishment for punitiveness in our thoughts and behavior toward each other?


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I honestly think that the punishment we will receive will be that we will be treated as we choose to treat others.

If we treat others well, we will be treated well. If we treat others poorly, then we will receive the same treatment that we chose to inflict on others.

[_bcspace]

This is one of my favorite scriptural passages, by the way. It is a beautiful example of how Jesus expects us to serve him. His message is that the best way to serve Christ is to serve each other.

Hence, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Yes, the punishment is mentioned...but the punishment is not the focus of the passage. The punishment, as horrible as it is described, is something that can be easily avoided. All we have to do is serve each other as if we are serving the Lord.

It's punishment threatened nonetheless and like moksha, you've conveniently set it aside choosing to focus only on another part. Therefore, it's not me taking anything out of context.

The bottom line for this verse set remains: If you don't do the good works, you will go to hell.

[_Yoda]

It's punishment threatened nonetheless and like moksha, you've conveniently set it aside choosing to focus only on another part. Therefore, it's not me taking anything out of context.

Yes, it is. You are the one only focusing on one isolated verse, rather than looking at the entire passage, and the full context that one verse is written in.

You are conveniently setting aside the meaning and focus of the entire passage of scripture!

[_thews]

Something has bothered me for a while, so I want to get some feedback about it.

For TBMs, obeying the will of Church Authorities is of utmost importance and I respect that. However, when it comes to the matter of God, they always speak of God's justice and seldom his mercy. God's punitive side
always shines forth, which is reflected both in their insistence that horrendous actions ascribed to God in the
Old Testament were literal and that it is proper for leaders to echo harsh judgment as God's earthly tribunal.

When it comes to the Mormon version of God, Mormons consider themselves the chosen ones ...the ones God loves the most. Mormons that fit the mainstream mold aren't bothered by people who don't, nor what hardships they endure, as they aren't in God's chosen circle. Consider the Mormon backing of Prop 8 in California. If one isn't gay and doesn't have a gay family member, it doesn't matter to them that they are inforcing their beliefs on other people, mainly because it doesn't affect them. Mormons also don't see the big deal in the LDS church being racist from 1843 to 1978. They can claim that the new and improved Mormon church now allows blacks to hold the priesthood, and that's good enough for them, because to them, God is the one who changed his mind. In looking at both of these scenarios regarding Mormonism, if the LDS consider themselves the chosen "white and delightsome" people worthy of the highest level of heaven, they don't have empathy for other people who don't fit this mold, placing God as the one who is punishing them and therefore absolving them of any responsibility.

My version of Christianity is based on worshiping a loving God. I think the message of the New Testament
was one of mercy tempering justice, if not outright trumping it. I want the Church to be on a loving course rather than a punitive one. I want a God that showers us with love unconditionally like an idealized parent, rather than a taskmaster handing out demerits.

My version of Christianity also believs God is a loving God, and in that I don't believe in hell, though I am a Christian. I believe evil is part of this earth domain because it exists here. If hell doesn't exist in the afterlife, then its purpose here is to teach us what evil is and why we shouldn't want it in our lives. Regardless of the path you'll take on this earth, the one caveat that is unique to us all is that we are all different and life is not fair. The life one leads is unique onlt to them, and regardless of what it is, we will all know what's it's like to live without God. We cna believe God exists, but we cannot "know" it. The brainwashing the LDS use in the form of baring the testimony starting with, "I know the church is true..." just pounds this into their heads, as does praying for answers to simple things that one doesn't need to pray about. In the end, if life was fair, the rules would be uniform ...it's not fair, so there is no one-size-fits-all answer. Just because evil exists doesn't mean that God isn't a loving God.

I have heard TBMs tell me that I cannot custom order God and that you have to take what you are given, and yet I find my interpretation more to my liking and with an equal likelihood of being an accurate description of the Divine. Putting one's faith in the hands of that which is worthy of praise makes more sense. I find myself asking the question regarding what inner qualities are inherent in being a TBM that make the punitiveness of God more appealing. Am I deficient or blessed for not having those qualities?

If you believe in the words of Joseph Smith as he read them out of a hat with his magic rocks in it, rejecting the truth that his work as a money digger using the same con, or placing belief in the words "translated" from the papyrus from the pagan book of the dead, then it makes sense to attempt to make sense out of the doctrine the magical thinking concocted. If I were you, I would worry about what a flase prophet has to say about anything.

Am I up in the night? Does this put me at irreconcilable odds with today's TBM? Can I just exist in peace, in a minority Mormon status?
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Why be in any Mormon status? It's not true, and your questions delve deeper into what God's purpose for you is. Do you believe that God would condone Joseph Smith marrying 14 and 15 year old girls and have other men's wives sealed to Joe Smith in heaven? Doesn't this make love and LDS marriage mean nothing to God if polygamy/polyandry is practiced in Mormon heaven? Are the while and delightsome people the only ones who lived from 1843 to 1978 to get a shot at the top level? ...you know ...the ones God supposedly loves the most? Make it make sense...

[_karl61]

My version of Christianity is based on worshiping a loving God. I think the message of the New Testament was one of mercy tempering justice, if not outright trumping it. I want the Church to be on a loving course rather than a punitive one. I want a God that showers us with love unconditionally like an idealized parent, rather than a taskmaster handing out demerits.

Your notion of the New Testament message contradicts it as it ignores what Jesus has said in many places therein regarding punishment (such as Matthew 25:41) and focuses only on that which you agree with. Mercy and justice do not rob each other and you hear both spoken of in the LDS Church.

BCspace, don't cast stones - it is very clear that the LDS church picks and chooses which new testament scriptures it wants to follow - the clearest has to do with divorce. according the the new testament authors - who knows what Jesus really said - an LDS woman who divorces for any reason and then remarries commits adultery; If an LDS woman divorces her non-lds husband and remarries and LDS man she will be welcome with open arms in the LDS church. One can say that the Church is showing mercy to this woman and wants her to be in full fellowship. A Bishop can say ' none of us is perfect, that is why we gather, to confess are sins and break bread ' Others can clearly see that this woman is living in sin -

[_Gazelam]

There is a distinctive teaching regarding Christ that is somewhat unique to the LDS faith. Grace and works are shown to work in our faith like the blades of a scissor. Both of them are emphasized.
The reason for this is that we have learned, through Joseph Smith, that Christ has stated that we learn of him and approach him through covenants (3 Nephi 5:25-26). The covenants we make in this church, whether it be the covenant of salvation (baptism) or the covenant of exaltation (Marriage), are a school. When we keep our covenants, and we are filled with and blessed with the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost, we progress towards developing Christlike attitudes and characteristics. That is the reson so much emphasis is placed on the keeping of the laws, if we arent keeping the laws it is no different than if we were skipping our college classes and not doing our schoolwork.
If it were your classmate, would you not scold them, or encourage their participation? School pep ralies are nice, and school pride can be a very encouraging thing, but when all is said and done, if we haven't participated in the class we have gained nothing from our time there.
Ultimately in the end we need Christs atonement to cleanse the mistakes we make along the way, since the Father cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. That being said, it is our heed and dilligence to law that prepares us to dwell in the Kingdom of God. Each of us will be resurrected into the bodies we have prepared for ourselves, and these are different depending on the degree we have allowed the Holy Ghost to sanctify us (D&C 88:11-40).
We love God because he is good and just and kind, and he has prepared all these things for us. We love our earthly parents the same way. The fact that they sent us to school does not guarantee a bright future for us.

[_moksha]

If it were your classmate, would you not scold them, or encourage their participation?

Given a choice, I would choose to encourage.

School pep rallies are nice, and school pride can be a very encouraging thing, but when all is said and done, if we haven't participated in the class we have gained nothing from our time there.

I like this. We should gain something for our time here. After all, we are a part of all that we have met.

Ultimately in the end we need Christs atonement to cleanse the mistakes we make along the way, since the Father cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

For a Supreme Being who created the Universe, you would think He has seen it all by now. That inability to look upon sin with the least degree of allowance sounds more like a neurotic philosophy of man. Is the Grace of God insufficient to shield us from this darker side? The result of our good works seems a blessing to those who received our help and to us as well for giving love.

We love God because he is good and just and kind, and he has prepared all these things for us.

Yes. These things were billions of years in the making and we should be grateful. God is good, just and kind. :-)

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[_Seven]

Over the summer, I read the Christian book "The Shack."
(I should first mention that I didn't care for the writing style at times, and the dialogue by the protagonist ("Mack") with God, along with the cliché serial killer portion was hokey)

With that said, I loved the book for it's beautiful message of God's unconditional love, and the author's ability to apply Christian belief of forgiveness and charity to the most horrific situation a parent can imagine: a father who loses his little girl to a kidnapping, sexual assault, and murder.

The father Mack is understandably very angry with God and believes a loving Father in Heaven would have never allowed the crime to happen. He also can't understand why God would ever forgive this criminal, and believes the sinner should be damned eternally in hell.


Mack gets a visit from God and is told since he is able to judge The Father so easily, he can certainly judge the world. He is forced to choose 2 of his 5 children that he is going to spend eternity with in heaven and the other 3 he must send to hell. He is shown which of his children would be the logical choice for hell based on their mistakes. “I am only asking you to do something that you believe God does. He knows every person ever conceived, and he knows them so much more deeply and clearly than you will ever know your own children. He loves each one according to his knowledge of the being of that son or daughter. You believe he will condemn most to an eternity of torment, away from his presence and apart from his love. Is that not true?”

Mack, like any loving parent, can’t choose between his own children and won’t judge them into hell.

He begs God to take himself as a sacrifice to save his children.

“now you sound like Jesus.”