Punitiveness and the TBM

[_moksha]

Seven, what a great story. Please come give a Sacrament talk at my ward!

[_Seven]

Seven, what a great story. Please come give a Sacrament talk at my ward!

Thanks Moksha! I wish all us NOMs could attend the same Ward.

Hence, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Yes, the punishment is mentioned...but the punishment is not the focus of the passage. The punishment, as horrible as it is described, is something that can be easily avoided. All we have to do is serve each other as if we are serving the Lord.

What a powerful passage it is Liz. It helps define how we should behave in our approach to one another. Do you think there could be a punishment for punitiveness in our thoughts and behavior toward each other?

I gave a lesson to my children on this question you asked. It's a powerful answer in the scriptures:

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[_moksha]

Seven, I liked your post so much that I took the liberty of sharing it on another forum. The results did not turn out terribly favorable, but that is my fault for adding some of my own thoughts in subsequent posts.

http://www.LDS.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/27929-love-jesus-taught-us.html

[_Seven]

Seven, I liked your post so much that I took the liberty of sharing it on another forum. The results did not turn out terribly favorable, but that is my fault for adding some of my own thoughts in subsequent posts.

http://www.LDS.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/27929-love-jesus-taught-us.html

Thanks Moksha. :) It's heartening to find kindred spirits here at MD.

I've never posted on the LDS.net forum before. Are the posters there more like Chapel Mormons? Pretty narrow minded comments. I can't say I'm surprised by their responses, opposing a God of unconditional love, but it's very discouraging. Expecting recompense for obedience to law and good works is drilled into Mormons from the time we first learn about the 3 circles. It allows people to feel superior to others and favored by God. It gives power to judge another. It's strange that they believe God's love would be so different (less) than what we feel for our own. It's on this issue of Christ's mercy & atonement, that I understand why other Christians have such strong disagreements with Mormons on works vs. grace.

I love this quote by C.S. Lewis-

"The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us."

[_moksha]

I've never posted on the LDS.net forum before.

They sure could benefit from what you have to say, if you ever choose to post. LDS.net is substantially different from MD or MAD.

[_terasmies]

Moksha,

If I understand your question correctly from the main post, you are asking why the LDS focus more on works/actions and the consequences of these rather than God's love for His children. Am I right in this?

To answer this one has to look at the audience and what they believe. All through the Bible it teaches that one needs to have faith in Jesus to be saved. The LDS members are supposed to believe in Jesus Christ before they are baptised. The first question in the Baptismal and Temple interviews is about a persons' faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The fourth article of faith states first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But as Christian churches teach, once one has faith in Jesus it does not give them a 'get out of jail free' card. They do need to live a good life according to the Bible. This is where the talks about works come in with the LDS - it is talking to the supposed converted people and reminding them that they cannot sit on their laurals now that they believe in Jesus, they must follow His teachings.

But this is not focusing on God's punitiveness. Jesus is God's love and mercy for us. John 3:16 says it all - God loved the world He sacrificed His Son for us. Jesus paid God in full for everyon's sins on the condition that we believe in Him and follow His directions. We belong to Him because of this. Those who are found lacking in faith in Jesus will answer to both Heavenly Father and Jesus on the day of judgement. Those who have true faith in Jesus will answer only to Jesus.

Hopefull this helps answer your question.

[_moksha]

Those who are found lacking in faith in Jesus will answer to both Heavenly Father and Jesus on the day of judgment. Those who have true faith in Jesus will answer only to Jesus.

Hopefully this helps answer your question.

Terasimes, any judgment is beyond my human scope of knowing. Faith and its embodiment in action seems good to me.

Has anyone read Gustav Flaubert's short story, The Legend of St. Julian the Hospitaller? His faith put into action, really did help him embrace the least and avoid human judgment. Would this not be an ideal model for a Latter-Day Saint, rather than someone in an IBM suit, with nary a kind word to say?

.

[_bcspace]

Your notion of the New Testament message contradicts it as it ignores what Jesus has said in many places therein regarding punishment (such as Matthew 25:41) and focuses only on that which you agree with. Mercy and justice do not rob each other and you hear both spoken of in the LDS Church.

Once again, BC, you are smugly quoting a single scripture out of context. Let's take a look at the entire reference:

How does the rest of the context change anything I said? Since there is no change, it simply shows that I quoted in context.

[_Yoda]

How does the rest of the context change anything I said? Since there is no change, it simply shows that I quoted in context.

BC....Either your reading comprehension ability is skewed, or you are deliberately "playing dumb" simply to make your point.

This is not the first time you have taken a single scripture out of context in an attempt to prove a point.

When you take a portion of writing out of context, you skew the meaning of the entire work. It is the same as overhearing a portion of a conversation and drawing the wrong conclusion because you have not heard the entire conversation. You have taken it out of context.

Here is the scripture you quoted:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The entire passage, however, is discussing how we should treat each other. Take a look at the surrounding scripture.

Verse 40:

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Verses 42-46:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus was teaching a lesson on how to be righteous, and how to recognize righteous ways. His focus was positive, not negative. He was explaining that treating each other with kindness was equivalent to treating Jesus with kindness. The purest way to worship Christ is to be kind to one another.

There is punishment if you refuse to treat each other kindly. If you choose to treat your fellow man kindly, not only is there no punishment, but there is the great reward.

Verse 34:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Christ did not set us up to fail.

If we are striving to do our best...we are serving our fellow man as if we were serving Christ...then we will receive eternal reward.

Christ's sacrifice on the cross and his suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane was the ultimate form of mercy tempering justice. That sacrifice provided us with the opportunity to repent. We can make small mis-steps on the way. Christ knew that we would. But if we come to him with a pure heart, He will recognize that as well.

Moksha can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what he was referring to in his OP is that it is very easy to reduce Mormonism to a litany of rules. Sometimes, it feels very much like the Law of Moses. We become so encumbered in crossing every t and dotting every i that we lose focus of the big picture, which is Christ's love for us.

[_bcspace]

I have heard TBMs tell me that I cannot custom order God and that you have to take what you are given, and yet I find my interpretation more to my liking and with an equal likelihood of being an accurate description of the Divine.

Start your own church.

Putting one's faith in the hands of that which is worthy of praise makes more sense.

Arbitrary.

I find myself asking the question regarding what inner qualities are inherent in being a TBM that make the punitiveness of God more appealing. Am I deficient or blessed for not having those qualities?

I think TBMs are more concern with what is and is not doctrine. What you can't stand likely is the absoluteness of all truth. You want an escape hatch adn the lack of one you are confusing with punitiveness.

Am I up in the night?

Yes. You speak of God as if you believe in one yet you seek to define God for your own pleasure.

Does this put me at irreconcilable odds with today's TBM?

Yes.

Can I just exist in peace, in a minority Mormon status?

No. If you associate yourself with the LDS Church while not accepting it's core doctrines, you will always be troubled and never find peace.