Map of the Comoros Islands, circa 1812

[_Dr. Shades]

Still wasn't the capitol, . . .

I have a map of Utah. For some reason, many, many cities other than the capitol are displayed on it. Why is that, do you think?

. . . which is why it doesn't appear on any maps that would have been available to Joseph Smith, . . .

It didn't have to appear on any maps that would have been available to Joseph Smith. It only had to appear on maps that would have been available to Solomon Spalding.

and why it's silly to insist it would have been a well-known toponym.

It probably wasn't well-known. As long as it was known to one guy--Solomon Spalding--that's all that counts.

What misleading information provided in the OP?

The information that I pointed out as incorrect.

That's my whole point: There was no information that was incorrect.

Don't play stupid, Scratch.

Doctor Scratch and I are two entirely separate people. So separate, in fact, that I've never met him face-to-face.

You know as well as everyone else who read the post that the OP thought it was the capital during Smith's lifetime, which is the only way the city might be known outside of Africa.

Los Angeles is not the capital of the United States during your lifetime, therefore the city is not known outside of North America.

Again, don't play stupid.

I'm not the one playing stupid.

The OP referenced a notion that is discussed here that his shipment of ginseng was shipwrecked on the island of Comoros:

The OP never mentioned a shipwreck. What is or is not written on any unrelated site somewhere on the Internet is of no concern.

What, exactly, am I supposed to correct, again?

Exactly what I pointed out. I thought only Mormons were supposed to use dishonesty to defend their dogmatism.

That's correct.

Way to shatter that stereotype.

I've shattered nothing. Even now, only Mormons are supposed to use dishonesty to defend their dogmatism.

[_maklelan]

I have a map of Utah. For some reason, many, many cities other than the capitol are displayed on it. Why is that, do you think?

We both know the people reading this thread aren't that stupid. Save the juvenile rhetoric.

It didn't have to appear on any maps that would have been available to Joseph Smith. It only had to appear on maps that would have been available to Solomon Spalding.

How clever, but can you point to such a map, or are you just trying to land a pithy little jab to deflect attention away from the uselessness of your evidence?

It probably wasn't well-known. As long as it was known to one guy--Solomon Spalding--that's all that counts.

Leaving to the side the problems with Broadhurst and Criddle's analysis, can you show that it was known to Spalding, or is this just a deflection?

That's my whole point: There was no information that was incorrect.

You know very well that Smith, Sr. never lost a consignment of anything on that island. If you didn't know it previously, you know it now. You also now know that there's no reason to think Joseph Smith or Solomon Spalding ever knew about the city of Moroni. Both the statements from the OP are incorrect. If you really didn't know it before, you know it now.

Doctor Scratch and I are two entirely separate people. So separate, in fact, that I've never met him face-to-face.

My apologies.

Los Angeles is not the capital of the United States during your lifetime, therefore the city is not known outside of North America.

Once again, save the juvenile rhetoric.

I'm not the one playing stupid.

Yes, you very clearly are. Either that or you really think that the fact that LA isn't the capitol of the US and is still well known is relevant to 19th century awareness of a city on a tiny island that doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere, which would make you genuinely stupid. You've never struck me as genuinely stupid in the past.

The OP never mentioned a shipwreck. What is or is not written on any unrelated site somewhere on the Internet is of no concern.

How else does one lose a consignment at an island unrelated to its destination, and what others theories are you aware of that account for such a loss by those means?

That's correct.

I'm beginning to think my previous impressions of you were mistaken.

I've shattered nothing. Even now, only Mormons are supposed to use dishonesty to defend their dogmatism.

You're either incredibly stupid or are just playing an infantile game. I honestly can't tell which at this point.

[_aussieguy55]

What has often fascinated me is the origin of the word "Mormon". I understand in Greek it means "frightening" and was used on books on birds in the early 1800s to refer to the puffin bird calling them "Mormon arcticus" and "Mormon glacious". Could Spalding or Rigdon been aware of this?

"The Sea Parrot, as this bird is usually called on the eastern coasts of the United States, as well as by the fishermen of Newfoundland and Labrador, sometimes proceeds as far south as the entrance of the river Savannah in Georgia, where I saw a good number in the winter of 1831-32. It is by no means, however, common with this species to extend its southward migrations so far, and I suspect it does so only in very severe weather. It is never plentiful off Long Island, but becomes more abundant the farther you proceed eastward, until you reach the entrance to the Bay of Fundy, where it is quite common, and on the islands of which many breed, although not one perhaps now for a hundred that bred there twenty years ago. Those which proceed farther north leave the United States about the middle of April, and move along the coast, none ever crossing over the land to any extent"
http://www.audubon.org/bird/Book of Abraham/F44_G1c.html

[_MCB]

The satire I could develop from that!! May yet do it.

[_maklelan]

What has often fascinated me is the origin of the word "Mormon". I understand in Greek it means "frightening"

No, it doesn't. mormoluttomai means "to frighten." mormoros means "frightening." mormo means "she-monster." I don't think it would make any particular sense to try to assert a relationship to the provenance of the word "Mormon."

and was used on books on birds in the early 1800s to refer to the puffin bird calling them "Mormon arcticus" and "Mormon glacious". Could Spalding or Rigdon been aware of this?

The earliest publication in which I can find reference to the word Mormon as part of a genus of birds is this book from 1831: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DMX5 ... &q&f=false. It happens to list birds found in the northeast of the States. "Mormon" isn't a word in Latin, so unless someone can point to the word's use prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon (or at least the proliferation of the name Mormon), I see no reason to conclude the word was not borrowed from Smith rather than by Smith.

[_aussieguy55]

When i get home from work, I'll dig out Wes Walters' Mth thesis. He has refererenced books prior to the Book of Mormon publishing date.

[_maklelan]

When i get home from work, I'll dig out Wes Walters' Mth thesis. He has refererenced books prior to the Book of Mormon publishing date.

Interesting.

[_aussieguy55]

"The word "Mormon", apparently derived either from the Greek noun or adjective "Mormon" (greek word mi omnicron etc) bugbear, greek word Mormon - adjective "frightening" - James Dommegan A New Greek and English Lexicon (BostonHilliard Gray & Co..1833)

It was employed to designate a West African baboon from Guinea the Simia Mormon (the Mormon Ape - Johann von Schrebeeeer, Die Saugthiere in Abbildungen nach der natur

By the beginning of the nineteenth century have been applied by the German ornithologist Carl Illiger to a genus of birds, the "Mormon Articus", found on the Atlantics seaboard, especially off the coast or New England and Nova Scotia

See The Genera of North American Birds - Synopsis of the Species New York 1828.
p.429 Mormon Glacious - Black beneath white black collar; bill exceedingly high, moderately compressed, both mandibles with at most two grooves before the nostrils, lower extremely curved

[_maklelan]

"The word "Mormon", apparently derived either from the Greek noun or adjective "Mormon" (greek word mi omnicron etc) bugbear, greek word Mormon - adjective "frightening" - James Dommegan A New Greek and English Lexicon (BostonHilliard Gray & Co..1833)

I looked on the TLG and this is what I found:

1. Pseudo–Zonaras Lexicogr., Lexicon.
†Μόρμον. τὸ μέλαν.
†Μόρμος. εἶδος ἀετοῦ.

2. Suda, Lexicon.
Μορμώ: λέγεται καὶ Μορμώ, Μορμοῦς, ὡς Σαπφώ. καὶ Μορμών,
Μορμόνος. Ἀριστοφάνης· ἀντιβολῶ σ’, ἀπένεγκέ μου τὴν Μορμόνα.
ἄπο τὰ φοβερά· φοβερὰ γὰρ ὑπῆρχεν ἡ Μορμώ. καὶ αὖθις Ἀριστο-

3. Aristophanes Comic., Acharnenses.
ὑπὸ τοῦ δέους γὰρ τῶν ὅπλων εἰλιγγιῶ.
Ἀλλ’, ἀντιβολῶ σ’, ἀπένεγκέ μου τὴν μορμόνα.
Ἰδού.

4. Gregorius Nyssenus Theol., Contra Eunomium.
τοῖς προφερομένοις διὰ τοῦ σοφίσματος ἡμῖν ὁμόσε χω-
ρῆσαι, καὶ μηδὲν πτοηθέντας τοῦ συλλογισμοῦ τὴν μορμόνα
τὴν ἐπὶ καταπλήξει τῶν παίδων σεσοφισμένην εἰπεῖν, ὅτι ὁ

5. Scholia in Aristophanem, Scholia in Acharnenses (scholia vetera et recentiora Triclinii).
τὴν μορμόνα: ἀντὶ τοῦ τὰ φοβερά· φοβερὰ γὰρ ὑπῆρχεν ἡ Μορμώ.

6. Libanius Soph. et Rhet., Orationes 1–64.
Πέρσας ἅπαντα τὸν βίον ἐβίω φοβούμενος ἔαρ ἕκαστον
ἔξοδον ἔχον, ὥσπερ τὰ παιδία τὰς Μορμόνας, τῶν δὲ
οἱ μὲν ἄπαιδες καὶ πρὸ διαθηκῶν ἀπῆλθον οἱ δυσ-

7. Libanius Soph. et Rhet., Orationes 1–64.
μὲν τῷ δῆσαι ταχύς, ἐν δὲ τῷ κρῖναι βραδύς, μᾶλλον δὲ
φεύγει τὰς κρίσεις μᾶλλον ἢ τὰ παιδία τὰς Μορμόνας
καὶ τὸν ἄρχοντα τοῦτ’ εἶναι νομίζει τὸ διὰ λήρων ἐπ’

8. Joannes Tzetzes Gramm. et Poeta, Chiliades.
προσώπων ἀγριότητι τοὺς βλέποντας λιθοῦσαι.
Ταύτας καὶ Μορμολύκεια καλοῦσι καὶ Μορμόνας,
ὡς ὁ Ἀριστοφάνης που φησὶν Μορμὼ τοῦ θράσους

9. Xenophon Hist., Hellenica.
Λακεδαιμόνιοι καὶ ἐπισκώπτειν ἐτόλμων ὡς οἱ σύμμαχοι
φοβοῖντο τοὺς πελταστὰς ὥσπερ μορμόνας παιδάρια. αὐτοὶ
δὲ ἐκ τοῦ Λεχαίου ὁρμώμενοι σὺν μόρᾳ καὶ τοῖς Κορινθίων

10. Hesychius Lexicogr., Lexicon (Α—Ο).
*μορμολύττεται· φοβεῖται AS
μορμόνας· πλάνητας (s) δαίμονας (Xen. Hell. 4,4,17)
μόρμορος καὶ μορμυραία· φόβος

11. Suda, Lexicon.
Μορμώ: λέγεται καὶ Μορμώ, Μορμοῦς, ὡς Σαπφώ. καὶ Μορμών,
Μορμόνος. Ἀριστοφάνης· ἀντιβολῶ σ’, ἀπένεγκέ μου τὴν Μορμόνα.
ἄπο τὰ φοβερά· φοβερὰ γὰρ ὑπῆρχεν ἡ Μορμώ. καὶ αὖθις Ἀριστο-

12. Aristophanes Comic., Pax.
Ὦ Λάμαχ’, ἀδικεῖς ἐμποδὼν καθήμενος.
Οὐδὲν δεόμεθ’, ὦνθρωπε, τῆς σῆς μορμόνος.
Οὐδ’ οἵδε γ’ εἷλκον οὐδὲν Ἁργεῖοι πάλαι

13. Scholia in Aristophanem, Scholia in pacem.
περὶ Λαμάχου εἴρηται πολλάκις ὅτι φιλοπόλεμος ἦν. RV
τῆς σῆς μορμόνος Γ: παρὰ τὴν Μορμὼ καὶ τὴν Γοργόνα, ἣν εἶχεν ὁ
Λάμαχος RVΓ ἐπίσημον.

These are the only places in all of Greek literature that the word "Mormon" appears in any way, shape, or form, and the actual form "Mormon" only appears once. The rest are mormona, mormonas, or mormonos. The /n/ only appears in certain accusative conjugations, as well. I think it would be quite a stretch to insist Smith was perusing Pseudo-Zonaras' lexicon and decided to cull the word "Mormon" from it.

It was employed to designate a West African baboon from Guinea the Simia Mormon (the Mormon Ape - Johann von Schrebeeeer, Die Saugthiere in Abbildungen nach der natur

This text comes from 1835 (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rQVb ... &q&f=false). If you have a page number that would be helpful (I don't want to read the whole book, and the script doesn't support an electronic search). The taxonomy is said to date to an article from 1766, but that article is lost and the title (with the word "Mormon") is known to be mistaken (http://www.animalbase.uni-goettingen.de ... ce?id=1965). If this is pre-1830, I'd be curious to know the etymology of the word. As I said, it's not Latin, and it makes little sense as the accusative form of such a rare Greek word. By the way, here are the numbers of occurrences of all Greek words beginning with /mormo/:

# μορμοθ (1)
# μορμοί (1)
# μορμολυγμοῖς (1)
# μορμολυγμόν (2)
# μορμολύκαν (2)
# μορμολύκας (1)
# μορμολύκεια (36)
# μορμολυκεῖα (21)
# μορμολυκείας (1)
# μορμολυκείοις (11)
# μορμολυκειον (2)
# μορμολύκειον (23)
# μορμολυκεῖον (23)
# μορμολυκείων (9)
# μορμολύκη (1)
# μορμολυκης (1)
# μορμολύκια (8)
# μορμολυκίας (1)
# μορμολυκίοις (1)
# μορμολύκιον (6)
# μορμολυκίου (3)
# μορμολυκίων (1)
# μορμολυξάμενος (2)
# μορμολυξάσης (1)
# μορμολύξασθαι (3)
# μορμολύξεται (1)
# μορμολύξῃ (1)
# μορμολύξηται (1)
# μορμολύξωμεν (1)
# μορμολύττει (4)
# μορμολύττειν (7)
# μορμολύττεις (3)
# μορμολύττεσθαι (16)
# μορμολυττέσθω (1)
# μορμολύττεται (16)
# μορμολυττέτω (1)
# μορμολύττῃ (15)
# μορμολύττηται (3)
# μορμολύττομαι (3)
# μορμολυττόμεθα (2)
# μορμολυττομένη (3)
# μορμολυττομένην (1)
# μορμολυττόμενοι (2)
# μορμολυττόμενον (1)
# μορμολυττόμενος (14)
# μορμολυττομένους (4)
# μορμολυττομένῳ (1)
# μορμολύττον (3)
# μορμολύττονται (3)
# μορμολύττοντες (3)
# μορμολύττοντος (1)
# μορμολυττούμενοι (1)
# μορμολύττουσαν (1)
# μορμολυττούσης (1)
# μορμολύττουσι (1)
# μορμολυττοῦσιν (1)
# μορμολύττω (2)
# μορμολύττων (3)
# μορμολύττωσι (1)
# μορμολυχθεῖεν (1)
# μορμολυχθείς (2)
# μόρμον (1)
# μορμόνα (4)
# μορμόνας (5)
# μορμόνος (3)
# μορμορον (1)
# μόρμορος (1)
# μορμορύζει (1)
# μορμορύξιας (1)
# μορμορύττει (1)
# μορμορωπά (4)
# μόρμος (1)
# μορμοῦς (6)
# μορμόφοβος (1)

By the beginning of the nineteenth century have been applied by the German ornithologist Carl Illiger to a genus of birds, the "Mormon Articus", found on the Atlantics seaboard, especially off the coast or New England and Nova Scotia

See The Genera of North American Birds - Synopsis of the Species New York 1828.
p.429 Mormon Glacious - Black beneath white black collar; bill exceedingly high, moderately compressed, both mandibles with at most two grooves before the nostrils, lower extremely curved

There we go. That's interesting, but I'm still curious about the etymology. Is there any information available regarding that book's availability to Smith?

[_Phaedrus Ut]

in my opinion, the Comoros/Moroni connection is likely nothing more than coincidence. It seems a little but obscure for someone to decide to directly borrow the two together.

But I also can clearly see that many of the proper nouns chosen in the Book of Mormon narrative are clearly influenced by modern sources like Biblical names, cities in the North East and Great Lakes(see Vern Holly Maps), and other common names known to someone at the time.

For example we all have heard the story of Zelph the white Lamanite who was a warrior under "the Prophet Onandagus who was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains". Of course there is the Onondaga Indian tribe in New York state. In this case the similarities are probably not a coincidence, in my opinion.

It is important to consider these coincidences in relation to claims that something like NHM=Nahom is a absolutely bullseye.

Phaedrus