What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

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_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
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Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _Trevor »

Ray A wrote:This is a bit of a diversion. But in any case, I’m very sympathetic to posters who desire anonymity; especially posters who use familiar monikers and establish a reputation for intelligent and enlightening commentary. The idea of “exposing” such posters out of a misguided notion of revenge or “getting even” should not be tolerated. Jersey Girl’s suggested penalties seem reasonable to me, but may need some fine-tuning. I think in the end anonymity can be used for productive criticism, or destructive criticism. The latter doesn’t bode well for the future of the Internet.


There is a lot to chew on here. I view anonymity as important to those who struggle with Mormonism and those who seek to defend it. Critics of Mormonism here would especially seem to value their own anonymity very highly. Interesting how different aspects of this issue collide right here on MDB, and we struggle to find the right way of handling it.

I personally regret that I felt it was necessary to enter into such a discussion. I disliked the FAIRboard and I dislike MA&D. I am not eager to restrict freedom, but I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that there must be more robust protection of anonymity, and I believe it will benefit both critics and apologists to have it. Religious debates are highly contentious and become extremely personal in short order. I cannot rely on the restraint of others and their goodwill, or, rather, I will no longer rely on that alone.

The policy ideas that Jersey Girl, beastie, and Scottie have discussed are reasonable in my opinion, and I do not see them constituting a restriction on the productive discussion of Mormon issues from either a critical or an apologetic perspective.

Thanks again, Ray.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Eric

Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _Eric »

Doctor Scratch wrote:No, I just think that the rule will impact things in ways that people aren't anticipating.

Do posters not remember the last Five-Year-Plan we had here? The ironically titled bleeding and I think it's internal thread? What changed after that? I seem to remember the board becoming amuch lousier place to spend time on the Internet.
I'm sorry beastie, Some Schmo, Jersey Girl, marg ... You know I very much respect you all but I strongly disagree with this movement.

Before I'm accused of tribalism because Trevor is a Dry Mormon who has started to misuse the ugly word anti-Mormon on top of everything else, please tell me why I should support these new rules? When my family and I were in a hospital waiting room praying for my little sister and DCP sent my posts from this Site to my family maliciously, he did not announce it on the message board. In fact it turns out that Bob and Dan had somewhatofa plan where Bob took the blame and DCP let him - for weeks - until my step-dad told me it was DCP who emailed him and I posted about it. THEN DCP was all of a sudden a good family friend (even though my sister was in a hospital five minutes away from his house and he never came by like our other LDS friends, just like he doesn't know my mom or anyone else in our family and only hangs with my step-dad when Ed Snow is present), and Bob (who was all of a sudden my step-dad's lawyer, even though he wasn't ) had sent an email but it never went through. DCP continued to send my posts to my step-dad after that, and other posters have posted private information about me here. Much more private than Trevor's last name.

Did that happen because the right or enough rules weren't in place? No. Did I threaten to deprive MormonDiscussions.com of my presence (as if it was something to be ransomed) if rules and punishments weren't created? No. Can this website protect people's real lives from menacing Mormons who want to harm ex-Mormons? No.

This is all way overblow. I officially register my dissent and intention to complain about any ridiculous rule implementation by the new Politburo. Sorry. 
_Jersey Girl
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Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Eric
Did I threaten to deprive MormonDiscussions.com of my presence if rules and punishments weren't created?


No, and I haven't either.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_marg

Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _marg »

Eric wrote:please tell me why I should support these new rules? When my family and I were in a hospital waiting room praying for my little sister and DCP sent my posts from this Site to my family maliciously, he did not announce it on the message board.


Hi Eric,

The way you were identified by DCP is that you wrote on this board about a private email quoting it and DCP identified you. Protecting individuals on this board is not a huge deal for the board. Some people might choose to not post here, or perhaps be less open, but that's not a huge deal. Where things become very problematic is if someone is identified, their real name is posted here and individuals in their real life identify them. For the majority of people again it won't cause significant ramifications, but there is a possibility for a few that there could be significant negative ramifications..career wise and family relationships. So by not putting full names on here that protects the board from being involved in causing harm to others, it protects all individuals from at least this board being the cause of others identifying them through let's say an easy google search and it enables individuals to feel safer expressing themselves. It helps to eliminate others intimidating some individuals. For the vast majority this won't affect them, but even if one person is protected from being negatively impacted on their career or in some sort of relationship it will be a benefit.

If we look at your situation for example, if you had supplied nothing which could directly link you to your real name, DCP wouldn't have identified you and you could have been free to discuss family issues in a generic sense. Even if someone suspected who you were they couldn't post it, such that some one in your family doing a google search would identify your postings on this board.

People at this point, might still wish to have identifying names removed from past exchanges on the board.

Edit: It just dawned on me this wouldn't prevent someone posting off the board that "Joe blow" posts here as Joe..for example.
Last edited by _marg on Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Ray A

Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote: Where things become very problematic is if someone is identified, their real name is posted here and individuals in their real life identify them. For the majority of people again it won't cause significant ramifications, but there is a possibility for a few that there could be significant negative ramifications..career wise and family relationships. So by not putting full names on here that protects the board from being involved in causing harm to others, it protects all individuals from at least this board being the cause of others identifying them through let's say an easy google search and it enables individuals to feel safer expressing themselves. It helps to eliminate others intimidating some individuals. For the vast majority this won't affect them, but even if one person is negatively impacted on their career or negatively impacted in some sort of relationship it will be a benefit.


Marg and I agreeing is sort of like chalk and cheese being a good combination, but I do think marg has a point. It is from Eric's situation that we have learned how not to act in future. There's an old saying that "two wrongs don't make a right". If posters are continually allowed the same freedoms under which Eric was abused, then there will continue to be unconscionable abuses of privacy. The aim is to stop this, not further encourage it, so that what happened to Eric won't happen again. That's little compensation for Eric, but there's, in my opinion, little to be gained by opening the floodgates for others to learn nothing from what happened to Eric. For that reason, I'm in favour of putting a halt to any further abuses of privacy. You know the old saying: "Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it."
_moksha
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Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _moksha »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Mainly because it would be impossible to enforce, with no real standards, too much subjectivity, etc.


Telling the difference between personally identifying information and arguments and reasoning made by that person on a thread do not seem that hard to distinguish.

.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Eric

Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _Eric »

Hi marg,

Edit: It just dawned on me this wouldn't prevent someone posting off the board that "Joe blow" posts here as Joe..for example.


Yes. My point is that the real threat to people's careers, family, etc. is not the use of someone's last name or re-posting of publicly posted pictures, it's what is done in real life with the information. I would have much rather been outed by name on this board by Daniel Peterson if it meant he didn't involve my uninterested family the way he did off the message board.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
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Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Here's where I'm leaning:

Posting personal information is the same as posting behind-the-scenes information: In both cases, the target intends for the information to remain confidential. Ergo, the penalties for both will be the same.

(I envision MormonDiscussions to be multi-dimensional: One plane consisting of the board itself, and an alternate plane consisting of the chat and PM features. If posters have a guarantee that material from the shadow realm will never be posted to the sun realm, then A) the free exchange of ideas and information will be just as vibrant in the shadow realm as it is here in the sun realm, and B) the sun realm will no longer be bogged down with hostile discussions of the goings-on in the shadow realm. Win-win.)

The first time personal or behind-the-scenes information is posted without permission, the poster will be given a one-week suspension. This way, the thread can wind down on its own (because closing the thread would otherwise punish everyone, not just the miscreant). If the punishee fails to learn his/her lesson and targets the same individual again or otherwise demonstrates that he/she has not learned his/her lesson, then a longer ban. . . X months. . . will be implemented, as appropriate.

A blatant threat to post such information or a vivid description of such information, such that readers can get the "gist" of what the information contains, may be considered the same as an actual posting of the same, depending on the blatant-ness of it, as I subjectively determine in my heart of hearts. At the very least, a threat will receive a friendly reminder of the consequence of following through with said threat.

In any case, from this point forward, no one need fear that personal or behind-the-scenes information will ever remain posted to the board (against his/her will). A PM to me or another moderator will result in its swift deletion in any case, regardless of what else we decide.


Personal information: Information about a poster that he/she has not revealed on this message board, regardless of whether he/she has revealed the same information elsewhere.
Behind-the-scenes information: Information received, exchanged, or learned via the chat or private message features.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Paracelsus
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Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _Paracelsus »

I am Paracelsus Image
* Born: 10 November 1493
* Birthplace: Einsiedeln, Switzerland
* Died: 24 September 1541
* Best Known As: European Renaissance physician and alchemist
* Name at birth: Theophrastus Phillippus Aureolus Bombastus von Hohenheim
Unfortunately this board doesn't handle birthdates before 1910. Apparently, the church (c) is more liberal, handling members up to their age of 110. So, I look like here as somebody born in 1993. Please add 5 century, one half day of the Lord*.

I hide everything other personal information.

beastie wrote:Here are some more realistic questions:
1. Which posters may want to change jobs one day?
2. Which posters do not want to be forced to confront controversial belief issues with family and friends?
3. Which posters are trying to protect/preserve familial relationships by avoiding religious topics altogether, or by not being fully open about the depth of his/her disbelief?
4. Which posters live in a community in which critical comments about religion in general, or Mormonism in particular could negatively impact social interactions?
5. Which posters might be uncomfortable knowing that certain other participants know their real name and address?

1. Fortunately, I don't live in Utah.
2. (x) checked, real danger
3. (x) checked, real danger
4. (x) checked, real danger
5. I hope there are no "certain other participants" out here : Image , who can identify me.

There is one member of this board who knows my identity. I trust that person (OK, I sidestepped the he/she thing).

_____________________________________________
* I am sorry to reference the scripture.
Abr. 3: 4 wrote: And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest*. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

4 Und der Herr sagte mir durch den Urim und Tummim, daß der Kolob der Weise des Herrn entspreche gemäß seinen Zeiten und Jahreszeiten in seinen Umdrehungen; eine Umdrehung sei für den Herrn nach seiner Zeitrechnung ein Tag, und das seien eintausend Jahre gemäß der Zeit, die Democrat bestimmt ist, auf Democrat du stehst. Das ist die Zeitrechnung des Herrn, nämlich gemäß der Zeitrechnung des Kolob.


These are beautiful sounding but senseless sentences in both language. One revolution of any object has nothing to do with time. And I can stand anywhere to perceive it.

by the way the structure of "unto that whereon thou standest" is beautiful and useful. We can not reproduce it in German correctly. Our language is not Jacobean English compatible.
I know of nothing poorer
Under the sun, than you, you Gods!
...
Should I honour you? Why?

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe : Prometheus
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: What constitutes in real life information and what is the punishment?

Post by _beastie »

Dr. Shades wrote:Here's where I'm leaning:

Posting personal information is the same as posting behind-the-scenes information: In both cases, the target intends for the information to remain confidential. Ergo, the penalties for both will be the same.

(I envision MormonDiscussions to be multi-dimensional: One plane consisting of the board itself, and an alternate plane consisting of the chat and PM features. If posters have a guarantee that material from the shadow realm will never be posted to the sun realm, then A) the free exchange of ideas and information will be just as vibrant in the shadow realm as it is here in the sun realm, and B) the sun realm will no longer be bogged down with hostile discussions of the goings-on in the shadow realm. Win-win.)

The first time personal or behind-the-scenes information is posted without permission, the poster will be given a one-week suspension. This way, the thread can wind down on its own (because closing the thread would otherwise punish everyone, not just the miscreant). If the punishee fails to learn his/her lesson and targets the same individual again or otherwise demonstrates that he/she has not learned his/her lesson, then a longer ban. . . X months. . . will be implemented, as appropriate.

A blatant threat to post such information or a vivid description of such information, such that readers can get the "gist" of what the information contains, may be considered the same as an actual posting of the same, depending on the blatant-ness of it, as I subjectively determine in my heart of hearts. At the very least, a threat will receive a friendly reminder of the consequence of following through with said threat.

In any case, from this point forward, no one need fear that personal or behind-the-scenes information will ever remain posted to the board (against his/her will). A PM to me or another moderator will result in its swift deletion in any case, regardless of what else we decide.


Personal information: Information about a poster that he/she has not revealed on this message board, regardless of whether he/she has revealed the same information elsewhere.
Behind-the-scenes information: Information received, exchanged, or learned via the chat or private message features.


Shades -

This looks good to me, but can something be added about using information from this board to contact "real-life" contacts?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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