Wish for no future Proposition 8

[_moksha]

I wish the Church could extricate itself from this issue. We need not come off the perpetual heavies when it comes to gays. We are not haters.

Can we do it? If we did, would it not lighten the burden of future apologists?

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[_moksha]

In the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

9 We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

10 We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, aaccording to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship

.

[_Joseph]

You show who you are by your actions. LDSinc is very clear on that one. We can all see how they publicly acted on this so we know bery clearly what they are like.

We also know the leaders are big on 'do as I say, not as I do' from the donor lists. Asking, pushing and even 'requiring' members to donate to a political cause when the Leaders donate not a penny is pretty low. You lead by example, not by yelling from the pulpit and then hiding.

[_Jeneum]

I certainly hope there is no future Prop 8. But we can be pretty certain it will happen again and again. Until the Church returns to preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Book of Mormon, as opposed to the gospel of the Pharisees they preach now, it will happen again and again.

The LDS Church can be such a force for good in the world, given the amount of money it has, and the amount the general membership trusts in the leaders. All that would need to happen is a simple "look, we may be wrong about this whole homosexuality thing" and the leadership would follow suit. Get back to preaching the pure love of Jesus Christ and the Church would transform radically.

I hope I see such a transformation before I die. If not, then I certainly hope the LDS Church falls.

[_moksha]

The LDS Church can be such a force for good in the world, given the amount of money it has, and the amount the general membership trusts in the leaders.

While there remains hope and so much good to be done in the world, we should never willingly pick up the hammer of Jerry Falwell.

[_Jeneum]

While there remains hope and so much good to be done in the world, we should never willingly pick up the hammer of Jerry Falwell.

Oh no doubt. What I mean is, because the membership places so much faith in the words of the leaders, if an Apostle were to come out and admit that the Church may be wrong about the homosexuality issue, the membership would certainly follow suit. Sure, you'd have a handful of people leave the Church over it (like half of the bigots at MADB) but I think that the vast majority of the membership would certainly fall in line quickly.

That's what makes this situation so unfortunate. All of these Mormons are putting so much trust in a bunch of old men who are supposed to be the Lord's mouthpieces, instead of realizing that all these old guys grew up in a different time and place than we're now growing up in and it's only natural that they should be such hard-liners when it comes to these types of social issues.

[_ajax18]

Why do you think the Church took such an active and dare I say political role on this issue? It took a pretty neutral, nonpolitical, and in my view basically a nonstance, on illegal immigration. Do they fear the government will coerce them to solemnize gay marriages in the temple? I could see that happening. I'm sure most people on this board would agree that the government should force the church to solemnize interracial marriages in the temple. Since homosexuality is being embraced no different than race or any other inherent human condition, it seems like the logical next step to me.

[_Skibum04]

I think we can speculate as to why the church took an active role and there are several different options.

We could first take their word for it as to why they are getting involved and its two fold. One they sincerly believe that allowing state sanctioned gay marriage would have a negative impact on society. The other reason they have given is that God requires it of them. As the brethren spoke to the missionaries in california at the time they said that there involvment has to do with accountablity. They hope to stand blameless before God and feel compelled to get involved.

Any other reason is speculation. The church and its memberships can speculate that if state sanctioned gay marriage was legal than they would have to perform them in their temple. This will never happen. The state doesn't even need to recognize temple sealings and this would be a benifit for the church. Members go get legally married then perform their rituals as they see fit in their temples. This is already the case in most places in the world like europe.

The critics of the church speculate that the reason the church fights against this so hard is because of polygamy and not in the sense you would speculate. The issue with redefining marriage as between a man and a woman is it opens a whole new spectrum of options that the church doesn't want legal. The next logical step would be to allow for marriage to be allowed between more than two people. Two guys and a girl, two girls and guy. If marraige eventually evolved into the only restriction being consetting adults (which I am all for) then how is the church going to react with polygamy. If its not illegal anymore is the church going to allows its members to practice polygamy anymore. How would a modern church practice polygamy. Most modern polyamrous relationships are so different than polygamy especially in the bed room. You will have girls sleeping with girls, threesomes, orgys. The church obviously can't allow this and so the church doesn't want to be forced into this situation.

I personally only see two possible out comes for the church in realation to gay marraige. Option one, eventually gay marraige will become legal everywhere (even Utah) and if the church still has a strong stance against homesexual relationships they will slowly fade away into an obscure cult after several decades or a century or two. This will happen to any and all religions that maintain this stance.

However if the church is still growing and doing well in lets say 100 years I would imagine it will have recieved a revelation and changed its stance. Honestly if you think about it the church is plenty capable of comming out with a revelation that states that two men or two woman although they can't procreate in this life in the next life will have the power of god and be able to procreate. I think if the church takes this stance they will instantly become popular again, you will have some defectors but in the long run this will benifit the church and its growth. What is likely however is that the church will be the last to jump on the bandwagon here just like they were with blacks. Years after the civil rights movement the church concedes and allows black to be treated equal. I would say with gays it will be decades after gays are treated as equals in society will the church change its tune.

[_Skibum04]

(hum posted twice on accident, can't figure out how to delete so edited instead)

[_moksha]

Do they fear the government will coerce them to solemnize gay marriages in the temple? I could see that happening. I'm sure most people on this board would agree that the government should force the church to solemnize interracial marriages in the temple.

The government forcing a Church to do anything of the sort will never happen, nor should it. The separation of Church and State is sacrosanct.