What is known about the pre-existence?

[_TAO]

Proc. to the World for the first and a D&C verse infers the second one, though you are right, it is not 'known'

Which verse in the D&C?

Here it is:

D&C 77:2
...
Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse?
A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created
....

Underlines by me.

Per the Proc, what should we infer about intersexes in the pre-existence?

It's a trial given to some people; in any case, God will not fault them.

[_NorthboundZax]

TAO, not that I don't appreciate the answers, but both leave me scratching my head.

It seems quite a stretch to interpret an answer to a question about the four beasts as shedding light on the whether there are spirit children in the pre-existence or not. I'm all right with letting that drop, though. You answered WS's question with such certitude, it just piqued my curiosity.

The other point is the more interesting one to me. I see no way to infer your answer about the intersexes from the Proc in any straightforward reading of the document. While your answer is an approach that we might expect a universalist God to take, the Proclamation gives no hints that intersexuals are within the plan of salvation at all, and there is much more to deal with than a trial some have to endure while waiting for some literal deus ex machina to take of it.

Let's do a thought experiment:
1) female spirit is born an intersexual to parents and doctors that incorrectly deem the child "male", performing surgery to that end.
2) child grows up, marries a wife in the temple to be sealed for eternity.
3) the couple has a child BIC

What is the sex of this person in the hereafter?
Is the spousal sealing valid in the eternities?
Is the BIC child sealed to both parents in the hereafter?
Will the eternal happiness of any of these three be impinged by the answers?

That it is a trial that they won't be faulted for kind of misses the point that there are real situations that are outside the grand plan of happiness - at least as presented in the proclamation to world.

[_ajax18]

But this is the point actually; you were given trials which gave you the perfect opportunity to overcome your flaws, your imperfections, no matter what they be. Therefore, no matter what your flaws are, no matter what your trials are, they are yours to bear; they were chosen for you and you only. They are yours to own, and you have a responsibility to overcome them. You have a capability to overcome them. It's encouraging and scary at the same time 0.o.

Sometimes I think this belief is promoted because it liberates people from feeling obligated to help those who are suffering. Why would a perfect all powerful and all knowing God create a spirit child with flaws? In what way do we own our flaws? Did we choose to have them? If they are just some instrinsic quality of a particular spirit that we either possess or do not possess, how can another spirit who does not possess the same flaw judge what is right or wrong about how we deal with the flaw? They never had the flaw nor had to face the challenges that came with it. Can one person know exactly what it is like to be another? It doesn't seem possible to me.

If God wants humility and favors humility but your pre-mortal personality DNA did not have much of the humility gene, then the only thing that can be blamed is DNA and not the cards you were dealt.

No, that's why trials are given to us based on our imperfections. They make you capable of overcoming all your problems, if you desire to. They make it so your choice is all that matters.

But whether the flaw presented at our spirit birth or our physical birth, did we choose to have it?

[_TAO]

TAO, not that I don't appreciate the answers, but both leave me scratching my head.

Ok, cool, I shall be glad to explore.

It seems quite a stretch to interpret an answer to a question about the four beasts as shedding light on the whether there are spirit children in the pre-existence or not. I'm all right with letting that drop, though. You answered WS's question with such certitude, it just piqued my curiosity.

Well the way I read it, is that almost everything in our world is based off of things in the spiritual world. I may be wrong, but sometimes I wonder, why did God create frogs versus another creature? Or forests versus another organism? Or other things. And so I read in that verse, that things in the Spiritual World, and also in heaven, are often mirrored in this world. It may be a bit liberal of a reading though...

The other point is the more interesting one to me. I see no way to infer your answer about the intersexes from the Proc in any straightforward reading of the document.

Na, the intersex point is covered by the justice and mercy of God, that it is.

While your answer is an approach that we might expect a universalist God to take, the Proclamation gives no hints that intersexuals are within the plan of salvation at all, and there is much more to deal with than a trial some have to endure while waiting for some literal deus ex machina to take of it.

As said, it has to do with the nature of trials. And the 'deus ex machina' doesn't necessarily solve it actually, since it gives no idea as to what gender you were in heaven. That's why it's based solely on the justice and mercy of God; he won't blame you for the mistakes you make in ignorance of what gender you are spiritually.

Let's do a thought experiment:
1) female spirit is born an intersexual to parents and doctors that incorrectly deem the child "male", performing surgery to that end.
2) child grows up, marries a wife in the temple to be sealed for eternity.
3) the couple has a child BIC

In the spiritual world, as far as I understand, the true identity will be revealed, and people will be married according to the new knowledge up there. It's the same thing that happens to people who's spouses don't live quite up to the standard of exaltation. Of course, the person you get will be so perfect that you can imagine it as like your dream spouse. With God being the matchmaker. And you and the other person will still know each other.

What is the sex of this person in the hereafter?

Their spiritual gender, I believe, though I may be wrong.

Is the spousal sealing valid in the eternities?

As said, I'm speculating, but I believe God will mercifully pair up the people differently, but they will still know each other as the best of friends.

Is the BIC child sealed to both parents in the hereafter?

Yes I think.

Will the eternal happiness of any of these three be impinged by the answers?

No, just as the exaltation of your spouse has no effect on your exaltation.

That it is a trial that they won't be faulted for kind of misses the point that there are real situations that are outside the grand plan of happiness - at least as presented in the proclamation to world.

That's why you aren't punished for sins in ignorance. In fact, I think God will explain it to both of them rather kindly. And they will do as God asks.

[_TAO]

Sometimes I think this belief is promoted because it liberates people from feeling obligated to help those who are suffering.

Not at all, we should still help. Actually, what this belief means is that everyone is capable of becoming as God wants them, regardless of their trials.

Why would a perfect all powerful and all knowing God create a spirit child with flaws?

Again, this is my personal belief, so it's not the general belief, but much as our children come with differences, so do the spiritual children of God. Some are short, some are tall in this world. Some struggle with one trial, some with another, in that world. Actually... it might even be embedded in them when they were an intelligence before hand.... maybe.

In what way do we own our flaws? Did we choose to have them?

No, we didn't choose our flaws, merely our trials are set up so that we can overcome all of them if we make the right choices. A flaw might be as simple as having a tendency to lie, or it might be one of the much more complex and worse ones such as a tendency to have pride. It is still possible to cause yourself to use these tendencies without temptation, but temptation makes it much easier. It was important for us to overcome these flaws, and to become strong, so that when we become like God, we don't make mistakes and sin (a sinning God would be a disaster, that's why God's so selective).

If they are just some instrinsic quality of a particular spirit that we either possess or do not possess, how can another spirit who does not possess the same flaw judge what is right or wrong about how we deal with the flaw?

Because God knows what capabilities are need to act as an exalted being. He knows which flaws we must overcome, and which differences aren't really flaws, because they aren't really that essential to Godhood. He can see what flaws his spirits have, so yah, he picks his trials accordingly. Again though, my belief, not the one of the church.

They never had the flaw nor had to face the challenges that came with it. Can one person know exactly what it is like to be another? It doesn't seem possible to me.

One of the advantages of being a God, you can see all and feel as another person does completely. And Christ... not only does he have the ability, he actually has done so. I am so grateful for him.

But whether the flaw presented at our spirit birth or our physical birth, did we choose to have it?

As said, this is just what I think, but no, I don't think we chose it. I think we came with it before. But not sure.

Hmmm.... the spirit tells me I'm missing something slightly... but can't exactly put my finger on it. Oh well, I'll get back to it later.

[_ajax18]

No, we didn't choose our flaws, merely our trials are set up so that we can overcome all of them if we make the right choices.

I wonder what percent of the human populatin believes this. It amazes me how few people commit suicide and how much pain so many living things choose to suffer every moment of every day. Many people endure hardships and do not believe in these things. My question is why.

When I had my surgery, I felt no pain. I wasn't worried about my job. I wasn't worried about paying the rent. I wasn't even aware of the passage of time. I was incapable of caring about anything. And you know what, that was a lot better than the life I've been living for the past fourteen years since I lost my health. I see no evidence that would indicate that death would not feel like going under anesthesia, at least when you're ultimately dead. I could always be missing something but that is the way it seems to me based on what little I do know.

For me, finding out that our sufferings ultimately had no meaning and that we endured life because we feared the uknowns of death would be the real tragedy.

I hope with all my heart that you are right. In the mean time the best I can do is to accept that I cannot know for sure.

[_Buffalo]

God has one celestial wife?

All spirit children were created all at once?

All spirit children are created as male or female?

All spirit children are created in complete adult form?

All spirit children have equal intellgence?

All spirit children have equal spiritual capabilities?

Spirit children were only judged for whom they chose to follow, not for anything else?

Families were established well before coming to earth?

The time period of pre-existence is unknown?

Some modern and ancient prophets were established in the pre-existence based on what criteria?

Those who were most valiant in the pre-existence were either predestined to fullfil either an important role, come in the latter-days, or come to earth mentally handicapped?

By definition all of it is unknowable.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

For me, finding out that our sufferings ultimately had no meaning and that we endured life because we feared the uknowns of death would be the real tragedy.

But most of us will experience joy along with our suffering which does make life worth living. For God to really show a great love for all humans wouldn't he simply rapture anyone who has no prospect for feeling joy or happiness in their life?

Imagine a person being captured to live a life as a slave and then simply disappear because every person deserves to not only feel pain and suffering but to feel joy and happiness. I know this sounds unfathomable but wouldn't this be the most loving thing a God could do for his children rather than allow some people to be born into slavery or complete despair?

I could not imagine someone choosing this type of llife in a pre-existence and can only conclude that if there was a pre-existence then there was a judgement and some were judged to live a life of Hell on earth.

[_TAO]

I wonder what percent of the human populatin believes this. It amazes me how few people commit suicide and how much pain so many living things choose to suffer every moment of every day. Many people endure hardships and do not believe in these things. My question is why.

I would think not many believe this... it took me hours pacing my room, sitting on my bed staring at the ceiling, and praying to discover this. I'm not sure many know...although I do try to tell it to those struggling... I think that is part of my purpose here in this life, is to serve others, and by talking to them about stuff like this, I try and help.

I think many people choose to bear hardships mainly because of the frightening aspect of death. It frightens us, going into a new field, which we have never experienced. And many would rather stay in this life suffering as they do rather than explore the other field. Although, I have found, that I myself could not do as they do, I'd rather go into this unknown field. I was close to that edge once. Not precisely on the edge, but approaching it.

When I had my surgery, I felt no pain. I wasn't worried about my job. I wasn't worried about paying the rent. I wasn't even aware of the passage of time. I was incapable of caring about anything. And you know what, that was a lot better than the life I've been living for the past fourteen years since I lost my health. I see no evidence that would indicate that death would not feel like going under anesthesia, at least when you're ultimately dead. I could always be missing something but that is the way it seems to me based on what little I do know.

It has to do with fear of the unknown... but I like you, probably wouldn't fear it all that much. To me, it'd just be another place to go and all. But I have a purpose to live for; I have reason to life, that is why I do. We all have a purpose to live for, if we look for it. A father, a mother, a sister, a brother, a spouse, a child, even the possibility of a future one of those. There is something to live for, that there is.

For me, finding out that our sufferings ultimately had no meaning and that we endured life because we feared the uknowns of death would be the real tragedy.

Agreed. A purposeless life would be... dead. Not worth living... to any degree.

I hope with all my heart that you are right. In the mean time the best I can do is to accept that I cannot know for sure.

I hope I am right too. For now all I can do is trust my heart, and trust in the spirit, for they are true to me.

If you trust in them; if you follow your own heart, and following where the Spirit guides, I believe you too will find peace. Other people will go in different paths, and saying that their choice be right, but only you can choose your own path; you are your own compass. You know what you will be able to live with, and what you will not. Even if the crowd goes far off in the other direction, keep following that compass, and ultimately, I think you will be happy. =)

Best Wishes,
TAO

[_ajax18]

I would think not many believe this... it took me hours pacing my room, sitting on my bed staring at the ceiling, and praying to discover this.

I've spent hours of unhealthy obsession with this question as well. I can only conclude that you must be right. I cannot accept any other answer. And you're right, the spirit does answer the most troubling of these questions for me, though often times not in as much detail as I would desire. Most of my inspiration for my best philosophical attempt at finding meaning in the worlds problems comes from Matthew 5-7. I find that I get in less trouble when I don't deviate from those simple truths as my base.

Even if the crowd goes far off in the other direction

Yeah and that has been the hardest part for me when it comes to organized religion. It's tough to be alone in my views. My tendency is to assume I'm mistaken when I'm not in line with the crowd. But logically it only makes sense that my conclusions are somewhat unique. Our lives are unique. While I believe in absolute truths, it seems foolish now to think everyone is equally capable of seeing them. It's good that I could converse with someone who understands as much as you do. It truly is rare to meet someone who knows even close to what you know. I just hope this knowledge translates to happiness one day.