What is known about the pre-existence?

[_TAO]

Most of my inspiration for my best philosophical attempt at finding meaning in the worlds problems comes from Matthew 5-7. I find that I get in less trouble when I don't deviate from those simple truths as my base.

0.o That's... the same thing I have found too.

Oftentimes I get lost looking in all the obscure stuff... and sometimes he has to remind me... to go back to the basics. I don't know why, but the basics are the most pure I think... they're so wonderful!

Yeah and that has been the hardest part for me when it comes to organized religion. It's tough to be alone in my views. My tendency is to assume I'm mistaken when I'm not in line with the crowd. But logically it only makes sense that my conclusions are somewhat unique. Our lives are unique. While I believe in absolute truths, it seems foolish now to think everyone is equally capable of seeing them. It's good that I could converse with someone who understands as much as you do. It truly is rare to meet someone who knows even close to what you know. I just hope this knowledge translates to happiness one day.

It's what I struggle with too... I'm sort of like... I'm 1 person in trillions upon this earth... sometimes it's scary to go against the flow. Yet I know I have to do it... it's like getting battered by two sides of a cliff, and then you sorta have to choose...

Yah... ajax... to be honest... I don't know all that much... what I know I was taught by the Spirit, or by other people... it wasn't really from me. I've been in the debt of others and the Spirit for everything I know. They have been so good to me....

But I want you to know, that I know you can do succed in your trials. When you struggle, just remember as you said, the basics are the best, that they are.

Best Wishes,
TAO

[_NorthboundZax]

Well the way I read it, is that almost everything in our world is based off of things in the spiritual world. I may be wrong, but sometimes I wonder, why did God create frogs versus another creature? Or forests versus another organism? Or other things. And so I read in that verse, that things in the Spiritual World, and also in heaven, are often mirrored in this world. It may be a bit liberal of a reading though...

So, would you agree that rocks have spirits, then?

Do both tadpoles and frogs have spiritual equivalents or just frogs?

Na, the intersex point is covered by the justice and mercy of God, that it is.

It looks to me like you are just reading that into it. I see no support for this position from the Proc (or elsewhere). In fact, it seems entirely excluded from the 'divine plan of happiness' as laid out in the Proc. Please point me to the portion you believe says otherwise.

As said, it has to do with the nature of trials. And the 'deus ex machina' doesn't necessarily solve it actually, since it gives no idea as to what gender you were in heaven. That's why it's based solely on the justice and mercy of God; he won't blame you for the mistakes you make in ignorance of what gender you are spiritually.

Actually a deus ex machina is exactly what you are suggesting - God will make it all good in the end; Even if families have to be split up and portioned out to others, they will all be happy, because God said so. If people can be so easily satisfied by their lot in the eternities of having their earthly family split up through no fault of their own simply because God says so, it really casts doubt on the value of the plan laid out in the Proc to begin with.

[_TAO]

So, would you agree that rocks have spirits, then?

Rocks don't have intelligence, so no, they don't have spirits.

However, they have 'a spirit matter form'. Meaning they can't make choices, but they have a part which is made of spiritual matter.

Do both tadpoles and frogs have spiritual equivalents or just frogs?

As said, it's just how I read it... but I think it grows with them just as their body does.

It looks to me like you are just reading that into it. I see no support for this position from the Proc (or elsewhere). In fact, it seems entirely excluded from the 'divine plan of happiness' as laid out in the Proc. Please point me to the portion you believe says otherwise.

NorthboundZax, the living gospel is much more valuable than that which is written.

Oftentimes, things are learnt through the Spirit, and not through writing. This be an example.

Why you might ask, do I come to that conclusion, and not to another? Because God is just and merciful; that be the reason.

Actually a deus ex machina is exactly what you are suggesting - God will make it all good in the end;

Alas, isn't that part of the justice of God, is it not, to make all things good in the end? Indeed, it is.

Even if families have to be split up and portioned out to others, they will all be happy, because God said so.

Let me ask you this, Northbound, what be the difference between a family and a friend in heaven, for you know them all perfectly. And you love them all perfectly as well.

Another thing you ought to understand, is that it isn't because God said so actually... it is because we will be willing to, at that point. Up there, we be willing, and wanting to strive with the nature of the Father, for we understand his reasons perfectly.

If people can be so easily satisfied by their lot in the eternities of having their earthly family split up through no fault of their own simply because God says so, it really casts doubt on the value of the plan laid out in the Proc to begin with.

As I said before Northbound, our families up there are not limited by how far off they are; your friends will be as much of your family as your son or daughter is, or as much as Adam and Eve are, in the beginning.

[_NorthboundZax]

Rocks don't have intelligence, so no, they don't have spirits.

However, they have 'a spirit matter form'. Meaning they can't make choices, but they have a part which is made of spiritual matter.

So spirit matter has nothing inherently to do with intelligences? If that is the case, what distinguishes spirit matter from matter we are familiar with?

NBZ: Do both tadpoles and frogs have spiritual equivalents or just frogs?
TAO: As said, it's just how I read it... but I think it grows with them just as their body does.

If yes on spiritual tadpoles, what about spiritual frog eggs?

NorthboundZax, the living gospel is much more valuable than that which is written.

Oftentimes, things are learnt through the Spirit, and not through writing. This be an example.

Why you might ask, do I come to that conclusion, and not to another? Because God is just and merciful; that be the reason.

I don't really disagree with this as far as it goes. But it seems quite incompatible with much of which is written, and that which you have cited as informing your understanding of the spiritual realm.

Let me ask you this, Northbound, what be the difference between a family and a friend in heaven, for you know them all perfectly. And you love them all perfectly as well.

Assuming you are looking for an answer like 'nothing significant', you are again stating something I don't disagree with, but is incompatible with supposedly inspired documents like the Proc. If there is no meaningful difference between relationships other than we love whom we love and go from there, the Proclamation to the World is widely off the mark and should be rescinded.

Another thing you ought to understand, is that it isn't because God said so actually... it is because we will be willing to, at that point. Up there, we be willing, and wanting to strive with the nature of the Father, for we understand his reasons perfectly.

A distinction without a difference.

NBZ: If people can be so easily satisfied by their lot in the eternities of having their earthly family split up through no fault of their own simply because God says so, it really casts doubt on the value of the plan laid out in the Proc to begin with.

TAO: As I said before Northbound, our families up there are not limited by how far off they are; your friends will be as much of your family as your son or daughter is, or as much as Adam and Eve are, in the beginning.

You are effectively arguing that sealings don't matter.

[_TAO]

So spirit matter has nothing inherently to do with intelligences? If that is the case, what distinguishes spirit matter from matter we are familiar with?

Not quite sure, but I think it is a sort of 'parallel matter'. Either way, some spiritual matter is embedded with intelligence by God, and that's what we call 'a spirit'. Again though, these are thoughts, not doctrine.

If yes on spiritual tadpoles, what about spiritual frog eggs?

Sure.

I don't really disagree with this as far as it goes. But it seems quite incompatible with much of which is written, and that which you have cited as informing your understanding of the spiritual realm.

Yes, this thread contains my thoughts, with some spiritual feelings, but not doctrine. Not written, no definitely not. But I believe it is compatible with the sources I use, that I do.

Assuming you are looking for an answer like 'nothing significant', you are again stating something I don't disagree with, but is incompatible with supposedly inspired documents like the Proc. If there is no meaningful difference between relationships other than we love whom we love and go from there, the Proclamation to the World is widely off the mark and should be rescinded.

No, what I am saying is that all who are up there will eventually be a part of your family. Including your friends. The family up there is many sealed earthly families, all linking together to create a giant human chain.

A distinction without a difference.

The difference is choice, an act of intelligence. Only people who are willing to follow God's choices will make it there though.

You are effectively arguing that sealings don't matter.

No, I am saying, at the end of this world, sealings will have linked all human beings that have ever existed.

[_NorthboundZax]

Not quite sure, but I think it is a sort of 'parallel matter'. Either way, some spiritual matter is embedded with intelligence by God, and that's what we call 'a spirit'. Again though, these are thoughts, not doctrine.

How parallel is this spiritual matter? Are there spiritual granites and sandstones like there are frogs? Does the spirit matter in an igneous rock change as the rock erodes away?

NBZ: You are effectively arguing that sealings don't matter.
TAO: No, I am saying, at the end of this world, sealings will have linked all human beings that have ever existed.

OK - you are effectively arguing that sealings on Earth don't matter (e.g., in the example above the earthly sealings were discarded the moment they came into conflict with something else and resorted). Further, it is not entirely clear what the links you are arguing for, ostensibly to keep the proclamation relevant, offer anyway.

[_TAO]

How parallel is this spiritual matter? Are there spiritual granites and sandstones like there are frogs? Does the spirit matter in an igneous rock change as the rock erodes away?

Not sure. It might.

OK - you are effectively arguing that sealings on Earth don't matter (e.g., in the example above the earthly sealings were discarded the moment they came into conflict with something else and resorted). Further, it is not entirely clear what the links you are arguing for, ostensibly to keep the proclamation relevant, offer anyway.

Nah, what I mean is that eventually, sealing will be done for all the people who have ever lived upon this earth. Why do everyone? Because people can learn in prison, not everyone on Earth gets the opportunity. So up there, with every single person sealed to all others, we are all 'one big giant family' so to say.

Na, Earthly sealings are interrupted all the time... it's what happens when someone doesn't live up to their mairrage covenant too. Only God controls when it is interrupted though; and they are so the law of justice is not broken.

[_ajax18]

Rocks don't have intelligence, so no, they don't have spirits.

However, they have 'a spirit matter form'. Meaning they can't make choices, but they have a part which is made of spiritual matter.

I think I agree with you based on what believe from Leon Skousen, but he worded it differently. He said that even rocks had some intelligence, albeit very little. That's why they obeyed God. Apparently rocks don't have agency though.

NorthboundZax, the living gospel is much more valuable than that which is written.

Beautiful answer. I'm not ready to give up hope in God because I'm learning that people are in fact suffering from conditions I once thought God would never allow. I've seen a lot of unspeakable suffering go down in my short time on this earth that I once thought God would never allow. Just travel to a third world country. That was a lot harder for me to come to grips with than people born homosexual. It doesn't make sense to me that homosexuality would be selected for by evolution, but I've seen irrefutable evidence and I can only conclude some people are born gay. But I still don't know what that means to be gay. With how many of them is it to the point where they have absolutely no opposite gender attraction at all? Maybe being heterosexual wouldn't be the best scenario they could conceive but if they have any attraction women at all, would that not be easier than to try to live celibate. And how do we explain this large portion of gay people in the population with evolution. Are they in fact attracted to women as well thus the gene continues to live? Any heterosexual man like myself would probably like to be married to 10,000 supermodels. If being gay is really referring to being bisexual, how is that much different than me saying that I have polygamous desires so we must have polygamous marriages. Or does being gay mean they are as repulsed by what I do as a heterosexual as I am repulsed by what they do as homosexuals. I just have a hard time belieivng that such a large portion of the population would be afflicted by this severe form of same gender attraction I last described. But for those that are, yeah they have a case and it's a tough question to deal with. But my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony No I don't agree with everything at Church, but Nobody can take away the testimony I acquired of some specific gospel principles while there that they got right. Even if it turns out the Church is a fraud, I still learned some gospel principles there that I will continue to believe in.

[_TAO]

But my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony.

I love this... I hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna put it in my sig on MADB.

If you don't want me to, just mention so, and I'll remove it.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

In the pre-mortal existence God had created every single being that would someday occupy a planet. At some point God wanted input from his spirit children on how best to proceed. God requested from his billions of spirit children a plan which would be used to bring about some sort of order and some method where all these spirit children will be given a chance to obtain a physical body, live a life, die and then receive either eternal damnation or paradise.

Out of the billions of spirit children we know of only three of his spirit children who reached the final vote for all of the spirit children to vote upon. Satan’s plan was very simple. Everyone will be born and all will be made to follow an exact protocol or path for readmission into heaven. The plan presented by Jesus was a little more complex. All would be allowed to live their life as they saw fit and only those who found that single door, which he would provide would be saved for readmission into heaven. Joseph Smith presented a plan that included parts from both other presenters and included them as part of his plan.

To Joseph, Satan’s plan was simply a long corridor with directions stating “This Way” and would not work. All would occupy heaven in the end and none would receive eternal damnation. Joseph suggested that Satan collect a group of volunteers to simply provide an unseen force to tell the mortal children “This Way.” They were free to direct them through a maze in any direction they saw fit. While Joseph liked the plan of Jesus he knew that not everyone was going to have the opportunity to find that door which he provided. He suggested that the door provided by Jesus will still be required to enter into heaven again. Joseph suggested that mortal beings did not need to find the door in their mortal life. A large group of volunteers would step forward in the pre-mortal existence to be born in the last days to give up much of their own time, and talents to help get dead people through the door by proxy.

God really liked Josephs plan and presented it to all the billions of spirit children. The spirit children had time to think over the many plans and were given the opportunity to either volunteer to be with Satan and his group, Joseph and his group or to simply come to earth and live a mortal life. So the call went out from God asking who volunteers to go to earth and lead people any which way they want in the mortal maze that people will be born into. At this point hands began to rise as one in three decided that this would be something they would like to do.

At this point God asked for volunteers to be born into a family or be a part of group who were willing to give up much of their freedom, time and talents to help get through the door those people who had lived a full life without finding the door which Jesus provides. Joseph raised his hand and within the hundreds of billions of spirit children about twenty million raised their hands. It was at this time Joseph realized the mistake he made. People wanted freedom to live their lives the way they wanted. All were basically willing to pay the price for any mistakes they might make while they live their lives.

To those who have chosen in the pre-mortal existence to be a part of this volunteer group. They have no time in this life to think of themselves. They volunteered to get the dead through the door by proxy in a temple. They have chosen to give up their time, talents and much of their free agency to help those who wished to live lives of freedom and sin.