John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

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_floatingboy
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _floatingboy »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
I judge publications by their insightfulness, by the quality of the evidence that they adduce, and by the rigor of the logic with which they analyze it. The size of their audience is, to me, a matter of tertiary importance. To put it crudely, I don't care, even slightly, about popularity polls.


Sounds pretty reasonable. I agree. By those standards, how do you rate the two Sorenson articles featured on sino-platonic.com? Seems like no one is actually talking about that, in spite of it being the seeming point of the thread. Or maybe I misunderstood the purpose of the OP?
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

1.

Actually, I wasn't planning to stick around to discuss the article here. If others wish to do so, obviously, that's entirely up to them.

2.

I can see, NBZX, why you're a bit confused about the subject that I was addressing. Here is the opening post of this thread, written by me:

Daniel Peterson wrote:According to a private communication yesterday from the University of Pennsylvania's Victor Mair that was passed on to me, Paper 195, concerning "A Complex of Ritual and Ideology Shared by Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East," written by John Sorenson and published in December 2009, continues to be an exceptionally popular item in that university's Sino-Platonic Papers series:

http://sino-platonic.org/

Some here may find it of interest.

Go down to the list of all of the Sino-Platonic Papers and, looking at the number in the left-hand column, scroll down to #195.

This was, I confess, posted partially in response to Joey's incessantly repeated claim that nobody beyond Provo -- he seems to have an obsession with Provo, which is a relatively small Utah city immediately to the south of the town in which I myself live -- pays any attention to Mormon scholarship related to the Book of Mormon. That is Joey's big issue, and pretty much, during the years in which I've been aware of him, his only issue. According to Victor Mair, though, Professor Sorenson's piece has received quite a bit of attention relative, at least, to the other items in the Sino-Platonic Papers.

I have since repented of responding to Joey. I've been down that road before, and see absolutely no point in it, so I was a bit irritated with myself for giving in to temptation in the face of his ceaseless jibes. Judging scholarship by how many people read it seems to me profoundly foolish, and, as I've noted, I just don't care that much about questions of popularity or even influence. Those are extrinsic measures, and, while they're important in their way, they aren't high on my priority list. I care about the intrinsic quality of scholarship.

The other (and much more important) purpose of the above post, of course, was simply to call the attention of readers here to Professor Sorenson's article. I thought some might find it worth a look. That general purpose is the whole reason that I returned to this board, and it's plainly going to take considerable care and vigilance on my part to ensure that I'm not sucked back into the endless and worthless personal squabbles and the like that caused me to leave this board in the first place and that have guaranteed that I won't return to the "Terrestrial Forum."

As the thread progressed, though, floatingboy suggested, in passing (and perhaps without really intending to do so), that Professor Sorenson has published no peer-reviewed scholarship. I wrote to point out that nobody here -- myself emphatically included -- has his complete bibliography, which would be necessary to establish such a claim. In fact, though, the notion appears quite plainly to be untrue. The Katunob article -- even if nobody had ever read it after its publication -- appears to have been peer reviewed, and, as William James used to say, the only thing needed to disprove the proposition that all crows are black is to find a single white crow. (Which is not, I hasten to add, to say that the Katunob piece is his only peer-reviewed publication. Even if we arbitrarily exclude his FARMS or Maxwell Institute publications, several other peer-reviewed pieces [e.g., those chapters in the books from the university presses of Hawaii and Texas] have been mentioned already on this very thread.)
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Kishkumen »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Sigh. By contrast, I can blame myself for trying, and I do. I'm obviously a slow learner.

Best wishes to you.


I hear the world's smallest violin playing just for you. Best wishes in return, anyway.
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Kishkumen wrote:I hear the world's smallest violin playing just for you.

I don't understand your urge to behave like this, but it's instructive.
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Kishkumen »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I don't understand your urge to behave like this, but it's instructive.


OK. I don't pretend to understand what drives you to behave as you do either. So I guess we are even.
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Kishkumen wrote:OK. I don't pretend to understand what drives you to behave as you do either. So I guess we are even.

You might try resisting the urge to read malice and ill-intended cunning into virtually everything that I write. I believe that would help. Otherwise, I'm likely to remain a real puzzle to you.

I don't expect several of the participants on this board to ever make that attempt. My status as a monster of mean-spirited hypocrisy and mendacity is quite clearly an article of faith with them, and, as if to gild the lily, a subset of them seem to have dedicated enormous effort to blackening my character even further than I've allegedly already done. But I've been disappointed, candidly, at how often you seem to share their view. I expect more of you than that.

There was no "passive-aggressiveness" going on above, no attempt to denigrate anybody here as "ignorant," no mean-spirited game-playing. You've absolutely read that into what I wrote.

Of course, you may prefer to believe that I'm lying about that. In which case, there really seems no point in our trying to communicate any more. If you're unwilling to grant that I write in good faith, that I'm sincere, no communication is really even possible.

(Within the past day or two, somebody down in the "Terrestrial Forum" described me as merely pretending to be a decent person in real, everyday life, but apparently giving my true monstrous inner self free rein on line. That was a bit amusing, in a bleakly unfunny sort of way.)
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Kishkumen »

Daniel Peterson wrote:You might try resisting the urge to read malice and ill-intended cunning into virtually everything that I write. I believe that would help. Otherwise, I'm likely to remain a real puzzle to you.


Malice? Ill-intended cunning? You? I actually don't see you that way at all. What I do think is this: "this man has some of the best rhetorical and psychological defense mechanisms I have ever seen."

Daniel Peterson wrote:But I've been disappointed, candidly, at how often you seem to share their view. I expect more of you than that.


Well, I am sorry that I have given you that impression. I genuinely am. Because I do not see you that way at all, in reality.

Daniel Peterson wrote:There was no "passive-aggressiveness" going on above, no attempt to denigrate anybody here as "ignorant," no mean-spirited game-playing. You've absolutely read that into what I wrote.


I'll take you at your word. I apologize for suggesting that you were being passive-aggressive. At the same time, I would like to reiterate that I was speaking of ignorance only in the narrow sense of Dr. Sorenson's bibliography. I was not accusing you of calling people "ignoramuses" in general, although I confess that I could have been more careful in getting that message across.

I thought that what appeared to be your misreading of my post was you being passive-aggressive by making it look like I had meant to suggest that you were calling people here ignoramuses in some kind of general sense. If all of this was just a mistake, then I am happy to ask your forgiveness and move on. It doesn't matter to me who is right here. It really is not that important.

Daniel Peterson wrote:(Within the past day or two, somebody down in the "Terrestrial Forum" described me as merely pretending to be a decent person in real, everyday life, but apparently giving my real, monstrous inner self free rein on line. That was a bit amusing, in a bleakly unfunny sort of way.)


Well, I believe you to be a decent person, although I think you, like most of us, have made your errors. My disagreements with you are of a very limited variety, and I really don't want them to escalate into a general animus. I am perfectly fine with the fact that you think I am fundamentally wrongheaded on some issues, just as I think you are mistaken on some yourself. On the whole I admire your learning and your ability. Above all I hold you to be a basically decent person. Please accept my apologies for misreading your post.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Thank you. I'm feeling significantly better about things.
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _floatingboy »

Daniel Peterson wrote:1.Actually, I wasn't planning to stick around to discuss the article here. If others wish to do so, obviously, that's entirely up to them.


I have to admit I find this a bit odd. I sort of get the impression you haven't read it. Is that true? You just wanted to suggest an article, the contents of which you're not interested in discussing? But you (and others, of course) do seem willing to devote a good amount of ink to a fairly superficial back and forth about what was or was not claimed regarding Sorenson's writing. That is worthy of your time, but not any sort of discussion about an article that you suggested others read.

Daniel Peterson wrote:As the thread progressed, though, floatingboy suggested, in passing (and perhaps without really intending to do so), that Professor Sorenson has published no peer-reviewed scholarship.


This definitely was not my intention, as you guessed. I've never read any Sorenson before this and certainly have no idea about his CV. I was only referring to the article in question that, based on what was said about it, I presumed had not been published in any other forum besides the sino-platonic website.
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Re: John Sorenson on Mesoamerica and the Ancient Near East

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I'm sorry, but Chinese-Greek... Uh... What??? WHAT???

V/R
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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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