Standing up together to Make a Change within Mormonism.

[_Quasimodo]

If I were 0.00001% as ruthless as some seek to portray me, I would make a great Grand Inquisitor.

Alas, though, I yam what I yam.

I did find you on http://mormonscholarstestify.org/ with a little finagling (that link in your signature line is inactive in my board page... you might want to check it).

Thanks. Don't know why it was inactive.

I think I've fixed it.

Working now.

I'm shocked, shocked to discover that the avatar you have posted is not your real photo. :)

Of course, mine is.

[_Hades]

I was born and raised in a small Mormon town where everybody was Mormon and everybody knew everybody's business. It truly was Mayberry, just like Dan describes. If you were a church attending, full tithe paying, temple recommend holding TBM, then it continued to be Mayberry. Once you veer off the beaten path, that all goes down the toilet. You find out that without belief in the church, you have no friends. I have been branded with the scarlet letter A (apostate). There's no going home again for me, unless I decide to toe the line again.

According to Dan, my experience isn't valid. I guess I come from some Mormon fringe that is not representative of the real Mormonism. Reading this board, I find I am not the only one from the fringe.

My guess is, Dan has never veered. You want to test this theory, just tell some of your Mormon friends that you no longer support the prophet. You'll see just how quickly they turn on you.

[_Daniel Peterson]

According to Dan, my experience isn't valid.

And Dan said this . . . where, exactly?

I grew up in greater Los Angeles. Based upon what I've heard, though, I have no doubt that there is much to be said for small town life, and much to be said against it. I doubt that the social dynamics of life in a village have a great deal to do with Mormonism, as such.

[_ShadowFax]

What are your opinions on this?

I'd lose respect for a prophet who polled ex-members to figure out his policies.

I wasn't thinking of a poll exactly, more of a discussion requested by the disaffected Mormon group bringing a forced attention to address concerns and problems en masse. If he doesn't accept it shows that he is not confident.
In past any communication with disaffected Mormons has generally been on terms of the G.A. in an interview or by other leaders in a court situation. My suggestion is to turn it around the other way.

It doesn't appear that any prophet is good at thinking outside his box of ideas, which is why any attempt to do so has ended in a disappointment resulting in a reluctance to address main concerns and problems. For this reason it appears that the prophet could do with a few fresh ideas if the Mormon organization is to survive the next generations given the new advertising campaign put on Facebook.

This next question isn't addressed to you particularly M.M. but to anyone who can assist me. I couldn't find the link up on this forum for the Exmormon advertising donation page for the above mentioned Facebook ad campaign. I wonder if the campaign should be extended further than Facebook to all the interwebs. It would be great to see the linkup page on all Exmormon educational sites so more money could be generated to land on more computer advertisement slots all over the interwebs. This could advance the education, or potential for hemorrhaging as Hades describes it.

[_Hades]

According to Dan, my experience isn't valid.

And Dan said this . . . where, exactly?

I grew up in greater Los Angeles. Based upon what I've heard, though, I have no doubt that there is much to be said for small town life, and much to be said against it. I doubt that the social dynamics of life in a village have a great deal to do with Mormonism, as such.

Is this another attempt to invalidate my experience? You're starting to remind me of my mother. She is always trying to invalidate my thoughts and concerns so that I can return to the church. She is afraid for my immortal soul. According to her, I follow Satan now, and I have put the whole family in jeopardy. I don't know why she is so afraid, unless it has something to do with her Mormon upbringing. You know, the one that doesn't teach you to be afraid.

[_just me]

All is well in Zion, all is well.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I've never said that all is well in Zion.

But I don't believe that all is hell in Zion, either.

On the whole, though, things are pretty good. But humans are involved, so they're not perfect.

Is this another attempt to invalidate my experience?

Good grief. I've said nothing about your experience. I don't know who you are, and really haven't paid any attention to you.

I don't know why she is so afraid, unless it has something to do with her Mormon upbringing. You know, the one that doesn't teach you to be afraid.

So. According to you, my experience isn't valid. You're attempting to invalidate it. LOL.

[_Simon Belmont]

You're starting to remind me of my mother. She is always trying to invalidate my thoughts and concerns so that I can return to the church. She is afraid for my immortal soul.

You should listen to your mother. She is much older and wiser than you are. She gave you life, after all. Listen to her.

[Guest]

Perhaps you have much different definitions of fear, shame and guilt.

Unlikely.

While most of the time I'll agree that there can be many different ways of doing any given thing, some not necessarily better than the other, just different. In this case not only is it likely that our definitions are different but it's quite obvious that we do have different ideas about fear, shame guilt and how that plays out within the Mormon system based on our differeing interpretations. Are both definitions correct in this situation? Not only unlikely but impossible. It's one of those clearcut situations where there is only one correct answer. Sorry.

Once you become unbiaste enough, and objective enough, you will see it for yourself.

Another's failure to see things the way you see them is decisive proof that the other person is biased and not objective?

If in this case there is only one correct answer, then simple math dictates that one of us is wrong. It's not a matter of you being wrong because you fail to see it the way I see it anymore than if you said 1 + 1 = 3. It's not an ego struggle between your answer and mine. If you gave 3 as an answer it would be decisive proof that your method of working out that equation is incorrect. It wouldn't be unlikely that we had different answers, it would be obvious if you knew the equation.
If we did indeed have the same definition/answer you wouldn't be so defensive over your inability to be unbiased and objective. There would be nothing for such grounds of defense. Get it? If you accept that your definitions of shame,guilt and fear are different than mine in this case you are saying your definition is right; and we both know that's not correct.

Perhaps your investment keeps you steadfast holding on to an incorrect answer while thinking it's likely that we have the same answer/definition. I had a period of time when I was tenacious about the same convictions that you were. I was afraid to back down in case I looked like a complete fool. In case people gloated it over me. I was clinging on to a sinking boat with no liferaft in place and I knew it. I saw the rest of the members believing as I did, which justified my positions. Those who didn't believe as I did didn't have a testimony. But, just because other members also believe as you do doesn't mean it's not a fear, shame and guilt based system and it also doesn't mean it's correct. It only means that you don't recognize it for what it is and you have an enabling support group. That is not to say that there aren't many good benefits within the Mormon system; it means there are errors within it that could stand to be identified, addressed and cleared up.

While I was tenaciously defending my defense position what I didn't realize is that my lack of humility was the ultimate pridefulness. I finally humbled myself to seek and follow truth at any cost. Strange thing was that when I dropped the biaste defense I saw through it and all the other non-mormon folk in my life congratulated me for my intelligence. Previously they were surprised that I could appear smart and stupid simultaneously when it came to religion. They didn't think I was too bright taking my former Mormon defensive position. Eventually I realized what they were talking about. I dropped my defense position and voila.

Strikingly optimistic people, as you describe Mormons in general, have nothing to do with the topic. I too was like an optimistic child. Now I'm an optimistic realistic adult. Ignorance can be bliss to a point, but only to a point.

[_Hades]

I've never said that all is well in Zion.

But I don't believe that all is hell in Zion, either.

On the whole, though, things are pretty good. But humans are involved, so they're not perfect.

Is this another attempt to invalidate my experience?

Good grief. I've said nothing about your experience. I don't know who you are, and really haven't paid any attention to you.

I don't know why she is so afraid, unless it has something to do with her Mormon upbringing. You know, the one that doesn't teach you to be afraid.

So. According to you, my experience isn't valid. You're attempting to invalidate it. LOL.

It's not just my experience that you try to invalidate. It's every experience that isn't faith promoting.