Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

[_GlennThigpen]

Fade to black at end of musical number....

UD

The Black Hole that swallowed the second manuscript.

Glenn

[Bedlamite]

...The Black Hole
...

1. The Smith-alone crowd says that Joseph Smith wrote the
Book of Mormon text, all by himself -- thinking up its
contents, vocabulary, phraseology, etc., as he went along.

2. The Mormons say that ancient American Nephites wrote it.

3. The Smith+helpers crowd says that multiple sources went
into the text, with Smith acting as the final editor.

Which of those three theories best explains the following? --


"the Lord hath said... that the righteous should sit down in his kingdom,
to go no more out..." (Amulek -- Oliver Cowdery? -- Alma 34)


"O how do I delight... to think of rest in God in his kingdom --
of being in a holy heaven, where pain and sin never shall enter --
to go no more out..."

"Memoirs of the Rev. Timothy Pitkin"
Connecticut Evangelical Magazine
Volume 5 (1812) p. 342


?????

UD

[_GlennThigpen]

...The Black Hole
...

The Smith-alone crowd says that Joseph Smith wrote the
Book of Mormon text, all by himself -- thinking up its
contents, vocabulary, phraseology, etc.

The Mormons say that Nephites wrote it.

The Smith+helpers crowd says that multiple sources went
into the text, with Smith acting as the final editor.

Which of those three theories best fits the following? --


"the Lord hath said... that the righteous should sit down in his kingdom,
to go no more out..." (Amulek -- Oliver Cowdery? -- Alma 34)


"O how do I delight... to think of rest in God in his kingdom --
of being in a holy heaven, where pain and sin never shall enter --
to go no more out..."

"Memoirs of the Rev. Timothy Pitkin"
Connecticut Evangelical Magazine
Volume 5 (1812) p. 342


?????

UD

So, now it's the Reverend Timothy Pitkin who wrote the Book of Mormon?

Glenn

[_MCB]

No, they borrowed from MANY sources.

I think today one would call it cut and paste. Back then, people just didn't scream CFR with every sentence.

The Mormon mind is an amazing thing to behold!!

[_Uncle Dale]

....
So, now it's the Reverend Timothy Pitkin who wrote the Book of Mormon?
...

Or -- Nephites wrote it -- but when Smith came to a passage better
articulated by a 19th century author, he copied those words.

Or -- Nephites wrote it -- but when Smith came to an Isaiah passage
better articulated in the KJV, he copied those words.

But Doc Peterson has expressed the viewpoint that Smith DID NOT make
use of any Bible. I suppose that God merely used the same language for
revelation in the Nephite record as to the Hebrew prophets.

If that is what Peterson is arguing, then perhaps God also inspired
Pitkin -- and further inspired Smith to use Pitkin's words.

Or -------------> multiple pre-1830 literary sources did indeed find their
way into the Book of Mormon text, as the Smith+helpers crowd says.

UD

[_Uncle Dale]

...(Amulek -- Oliver Cowdery? -- Alma 34)
...

Did I just read a big "CFR?"

OK....

"my great desire is that we may be faithful and obedient and
humble children of Christ here that we may meet together
in his kingdom of Eternal glory to go no more out...
Oliver Cowdery
Manchester
November 6, 1829


UD

[_MCB]

to go no more out[/u]...

WOW!! That inverted word order is striking!!!

[_Uncle Dale]

to go no more out...

WOW!! That inverted word order is striking!!!

The last part of the quote originated in Rev. 3:12,
but without the "to go."

Daniel Defoe used it in his Robinson Crusoe.

The joining of "in his kingdom" with the Rev. passage
came with Pitkin in 1812. Had he been more true to
the biblical text, he would have used "temple" rather
than "kingdom."

Either the combined quote was a favorite of Oliver's,
or else he derived it from Alma 34 -- and the borrowing
from Pitkin came via Joseph Smith's keen interest in
reading the New England theological journals of 1812.

Dan Vogel -- your comments are hopefully sought....

UD

[_GlennThigpen]

Either the combined quote was a favorite of Oliver's,
or else he derived it from Alma 34 -- and the borrowing
from Pitkin came via Joseph Smith's keen interest in
reading the New England theological journals of 1812.

Dan Vogel -- your comments are hopefully sought....

UD

Any record of Oliver using that quote in any of his writings?

Any evidence that Joseph Smith had a keen interest in reading Theological Journals of the year 1812?

Glenn

[_GlennThigpen]

No, they borrowed from MANY sources.

I think today one would call it cut and paste. Back then, people just didn't scream CFR with every sentence.

The Mormon mind is an amazing thing to behold!!

The more the merrier they say, whoever they are. But also the more improbable. You will be able to find many other phrases from the Book of Mormon in many other forms of literature. Check with Benjamine McGuire.

Do you realize the incredible amount of work it would have required to "cut and paste" phrases from so many disparate sources, and weave them into the narrative? Without a computer, or notes? All in secret?

There is a reson you cannot get even critical scholars such as Dan Vogel to agree with you on this one.

Glenn