Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

[_Uncle Dale]

What if the language of the Book of Mormon is just KJE laid on with a broom instead of a spray-gun???

When next you are reading John Calvin, look into what
he has to say about "the eye of faith." I doubt you'll
find that in the KJV, unless in the form of a footnote
to Zechariah -- but it may interest you.

Also:

"the Wiser and Better sort... therefore overlooking Them, as only Shadows
of things to come, with Longing Desires expected the accomplishment of
the Promises, and stedfastly LOOK'D FORWARD WITH AN EYE OF FAITH TO THE
Great Antitype, the Great Sacrifice that was to give Life and Vertue to
Their Dead Ordinances."

Sermons Preach'd Before the University of Oxford:
or Before the Honourable Society of Lincolns Inn.
By Edward Maynard
London: Jonah Bowyer, 1722

--- "The Second Discourse. Showing the Advantages that the Gospel
has given us Christians above both Jew and Gentile." (page 372)

==========================

"Cheat not thou thy self thus, O my soul, but
WITH AN EYE OF FAITH LOOK FORWARD into the heavenly paradise"

The Whole Works of... Sir William Dawes
1732 -- (p. 153)

==========================


"And thus if ye will not nourish the word,
LOOKING FORWARD WITH AN EYE OF FAITH TO THE
fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit
of the tree of life." (Alma 32:40 -- p. 279)

"Do you LOOK FORWARD WITH AN EYE OF FAITH,
and view this mortal body raised in immortality...?"
(Alma 5:15 -- p. 206)

Recall also that both Bruce and Matt attribute Alma 32 and Alma 5
to the same 19th century author, in their respective study reports.

UD

[_MCB]

I enjoy John Wesley. I don't know how much I will enjoy John Calvin. I'll take a dip into it, and compare those two chapters, then read his stuff. I am sure they stole lots of stuff from prot. theologians.

One theology prof at my Catholic undergrad college told me that I didn't have a good understanding of theology. Now I know why: LDS contamination.

[_GlennThigpen]

Recall also that both Bruce and Matt attribute Alma 32 and Alma 5
to the same 19th century author, in their respective study reports.

UD

(The "attribution" is only relative, as you will recall.) So now, John Calvin wrote the Book of Mormon???

Here you see the difference between the Eye of the world and the Eye of faith. Even if a Christian sees in front of him death, sin and hell, he can still say: ”I see no death, I feel no sin, I am not damned. Instead I see Christ and in him only holiness, life and bliss.”

Martin Luther (1524)

Keep looking. You are going to find a lot more. From many different sources.

Glenn

[_Uncle Dale]

...So now, John Calvin wrote the Book of Mormon???
...

Alma 3-5 and Alma 32-34 are linguistically and thematically
related. The attribution of Alma 3, 5 and 34 to the same
author is not due to some "margin of error" in the NSC
methodology (whether for an "open set" or a "closed set"
of author-candidates).

Nowhere else in the Book of Mormon will the reader find
any reference to the "eye of faith" used to "look forward."
The closest you will discover in the text is "beheld" used
in conjunction with "eye of faith" in Ether 12.

Also, in Alma 34 we find "in his kingdom, to go no more out."
In Alma 5 we find "in the kingdom of Heaven, to go no more out."

These are only a couple examples of the language shared by
the two widely separated Alma texts (3-5 and 32-34).

How many such examples would it take, in order to demonstrate
that the texts' similarity in word-strings matches up with the NSC
attributions of Alma 3, 5, and 34 to the same author?

UD

[_RockSlider]

How many such examples would it take, in order to demonstrate
that the texts' similarity in word-strings matches up with the NSC
attributions of Alma 3, 5, and 34 to the same author?

I say three! (but what do I know about this - nothing)

Just hoping all is well with UD!

[Guest]

How many such examples would it take, in order to demonstrate
that the texts' similarity in word-strings matches up with the NSC
attributions of Alma 3, 5, and 34 to the same author?

UD

Dale, I am not sure what your point is here? This is a quote from John Calvin, right? Unless my Book of Mormon chapter counting is incorrect, Alma chapter three (linear chapter 98) was the unobserved author as the most like probability, while chapter's five and thirty-four are "won" by Rigdon, but by the later Rigdon. This is using Bruce's extended NSC and using his matrix. Is Rigdon known to have quoted Calvin?

Also is the , in Alma 34 we find "in his kingdom, to go no more out." and the Alma 5 "in the kingdom of Heaven, to go no more out." quotes from John Calvin? My memory is short but I thought they were from another source.

Maybe John Calvin should be added to the mix of authors. I am serious about that. I would also like to see Alexander Campbell added to that mix. Parley P. Pratt and Oliver Cowdery could be removed so as to keep the candidate set manageable.

Glenn

[_MCB]

Maybe John Calvin should be added to the mix of authors. I am serious about that. I would also like to see Alexander Campbell added to that mix.

I agree, totally.

Most of chapter three is narrative, not theological. However, the last two verses are very Calvinistic. Not enough of the text to change attribution.

[_GlennThigpen]

Maybe John Calvin should be added to the mix of authors. I am serious about that. I would also like to see Alexander Campbell added to that mix.

I agree, totally.

Most of chapter three is narrative, not theological. However, the last two verses are very Calvinistic. Not enough of the text to change attribution.

I think that what you would find using the original Jockers methodology is that Calvin would probably "win" more than Campbell or Rigdon, and those two would probably be about evenly divided. I would like to see that done.

Also I would like to see it done using Bruce's extensions to provide some perspective.

Glenn

[_MCB]

Well, let me see how rich the resonances are. I've downloaded five of his works.

[_Uncle Dale]

...I am not sure what your point is here?
...

The point is -- that there is a language tie between
Alma 3-6, Alma 32-34, Book of Commandments 7-8,
and the (May?) 1829 "revelation" to Oliver Cowdery.

Perhaps all ten texts need to be laid out, side-by-side,
in order for the phraseology overlap to be easily seen.

Jockers attributes Alma 3,5,32,33 and 34 to Oliver
Cowdery's authorship; as well as Book of Commandments
7 and 8. The 1829 "revelation" text itself says that it
was written by Cowdery (and is in his handwriting).
For Alma 6 Cowdery is the secondary author.

My point is -- to show that it is not merely the NSC
attributions which tie these texts together; but also
their phraseology -- their sharing of lengthy word-strings
unique to those 9 texts (or at least rare elsewhere in
Mormon scripture).

Alma 3 and 5 should be somewhat similar, if they are
both early Alma sermons. Alma 34 should not be so
similar, since it is ostensibly the writings of Amulek.

Note also the following phraseology which ties Alma 5-6
to Alma 33. While shorter portions of the shared word-strings
can be found elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, the full and
lengthy textual overlap is confined to 5, 6, and 33:

him... which should come to redeem his people from their sins
(Alma 05:21, p. 206)

Christ, which will come to redeem his people from their sins
(Alma 05:27, p. 207)

the Son of God, which should come to redeem his people from their sins
(Alma 06:08, p. 210)


the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people...for their sins
(Alma 33:22, p. 281)

UD