Dr. Daniel C. Peterson, Who wrote the Koran?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Is there any direct evidence of Mohammed's life? Or is it much like Jesus, where we have no first hand accounts?

It's difficult to guess what might count with you as "direct evidence."

We are dependent upon later accounts for both Jesus and Muhammad, as well as for Julius Caesar and most other ancient figures.

With regard to Jesus, I find quite convincing Richard Bauckham's recent book on the gospels as eyewitness testimony.

[_emilysmith]

It sounds like you have had a positive experience in the Middle East, DrW. My own travels there were a little disconcerting at times because their attitude towards the female gender is so very different, but every second was fascinating to me. On the flight from London to Cairo, I noticed that nearly every Egyptian woman on the plane began a transformation just before landing. They were all sure to cover their arms and heads as we disembarked, and it left me wondering if I should have thought to do the same, despite what it said in my Lonely Planet. In Jordan, I made sure to conform, but even then, I felt out of place. Clothes that are considered conservative at home made me feel like I was dressing too provocatively, and I never adjusted to the heat.

I suspect there is a vast difference between a Muslim of means who has regular international dealings and those who are disadvantaged and less exposed to the West. I think the differences in culture are felt a great deal more by women, as well, considering the limitations faced in everyday life.

Certainly, I never felt any of the same vitriol that I have experienced on the Internet, but neither did I dare to enter a discussion about anything controversial. Mostly, I just let them ask questions, and was surprised at how many girls were interested about sex in our culture. They all wanted to know if I had a boyfriend. I never once brought up religion, and no one every brought it up to me unless it was to explain what I was seeing.

It's difficult to guess what might count with you as "direct evidence."

We are dependent upon later accounts for both Jesus and Muhammad, as well as for Julius Caesar and most other ancient figures.

With regard to Jesus, I find quite convincing Richard Bauckham's recent book on the gospels as eyewitness testimony.

Well, I don't mean to debate the evidence of Julius Caesar or Jesus in a thread about the Quran, but it seems to me that the evidence for Jesus is far more lacking than the evidence for Julius Caesar.

We know what he looked like, down to his receding hair line. We have more than a few words from Caesar, himself, as well as words from both his friends and his enemies, totaling thousands of separate documents from many separate sources. He established a government and a calender that persisted for some centuries. He appears on coins minted during his lifetime.

Jesus, on the other hand, has none of that, and, having been part of the LDS apologetic community for much longer than myself, I am sure you can appreciate why I find the Gospels included in the New Testament (of the hundreds available) to be less than persuasive. The accepted dates for the origin of the Gospels do not lend to the idea that they were written during the lifetime of Jesus.

As a matter of fact, the earliest Christian authors do not quote Jesus at all. They mention virtually nothing of his life's work.

Noting those main differences, I had always assumed that Mohammed fell somewhere in between, in terms of evidence, since he came so much later. You seem to suggest otherwise. Which accounts of Mohammed do you find most useful?

[_DrW]

It sounds like you have had a positive experience in the Middle East, DrW. My own travels there were a little disconcerting at times because their attitude towards the female gender is so very different, but every second was fascinating to me. On the flight from London to Cairo, I noticed that nearly every Egyptian woman on the plane began a transformation just before landing. They were all sure to cover their arms and heads as we disembarked, and it left me wondering if I should have thought to do the same, despite what it said in my Lonely Planet. In Jordan, I made sure to conform, but even then, I felt out of place. Clothes that are considered conservative at home made me feel like I was dressing too provocatively, and I never adjusted to the heat.

I suspect there is a vast difference between a Muslim of means who has regular international dealings and those who are disadvantaged and less exposed to the West. I think the differences in culture are felt a great deal more by women, as well, considering the limitations faced in everyday life.

Certainly, I never felt any of the same vitriol that I have experienced on the Internet, but neither did I dare to enter a discussion about anything controversial. Mostly, I just let them ask questions, and was surprised at how many girls were interested about sex in our culture. They all wanted to know if I had a boyfriend. I never once brought up religion, and no one every brought it up to me unless it was to explain what I was seeing.

I think it is great that you have enough curiosity and confidence to travel to Egypt. It is certainly not something that one would expect an LDS female to do. Egypt is a little different than the Gulf States, especially Saudi Arabia. (As you probably know, it is essentially impossible for a female to obtain a visa for solo tourist travel to Saudi Arabia.)

My wife is blonde and petite. One of the stories she likes to tell about one of our trips to the Khan el Khalili bazaar in Cairo concerns the many offers I got for camels and other livestock (and even cash) from enterprising young men who mistook her for my daughter. Apparently in Egypt blonds can command a premium price. (If your avatar is your picture, you probably already know exactly what I am talking about.)

While poorer on average than the Gulf States, Egypt has a relatively well educated population, and does not rely as much on foreign workers. With a legacy population of Coptic Christians, and some of the recent political changes there, I think there is a good chance for Egypt to accelerate along the path to more secular society. It is already much less "Islamic" than its Gulf Arab neighbors.

Back to the thread topic; I think that Karen Armstrong does a great job of describing the Prophet Muhammad and his work on the foundations of Islam. From my (clearly non-professional) reading of history, I believe that that the probability of there having been an actual Prophet Muhammad is substantially greater than that of there having been an actual Jesus Christ.

[_emilysmith]

I heard "How many camels?" more times than I could count. That tended to be the most polite type of offer. :/

There are many things I need to read. I may never make it to Karen Armstrong but, on your recommendation, I have a copy of "Islam" and "Muhammad: Biography of the Prophet" on my Kindle, but I am mostly interested on the sources.

Of all that I have had time to sift through, Maxime Rodinson is the quickest to get to the point.

The oldest collections of historical traditions available to us date from about 125 years after the Prophet's lifetime. Much imagination may have gone to work in the meantime. And yet many facts can be established, as the parties who differ most widely are agreed on the main events of the Prophet's life, the names of his Companions and his wives, their kinship and genealogy, as well as on a great many other things, even down to details which are far from remarkable which nobody would have deemed worth inventing.

These sources are really what I am interested in.

Have you ever heard of the first Mosque in Quba? Muhammad supposedly stayed there and even laid a few stones for it. Oddly enough, it was torn down and, in 1986, an entirely new mosque, complete with gift shops, was built. Is anyone aware of any kind of excavation having been done?

[_emilysmith]

It turns out I am not the only one who was questioning the existence of Mohammad.

Kalisch concludes that Islam itself began as a Gnosis, a secret teaching much like the Gnostic Christian sources rejected by the Church Fathers. “The myth of Mohammed … could be the product of a Gnosis, which wanted to present its theology
in a new and original myth with a new protagonist, but actually is the old protagonist (Moses, Jesus). For the Gnostics it always was clear, that the issue was not historical truth, but rather theology. Moses, Jesus and Mohammed were only different characterizations of a mythic hero or son of god, who would depict an old spiritual teaching in mythical form.”

I am still surprised at how little evidence outside of the Quran there was. Jesus, who was 600 years earlier, has far more sources available closer to his lifetime. Even the earliest sources I could track down mention Islam, but no prophet, Mohammad. Professor Kalisch seems to provide a reasonable sounding explanation.

When people make a counter argument to some of his points, they merely point to the Quran. My problem with that is it seems obvious the Quran was not actually written by Mohammad.