Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote:Hurlbut did not have the right qualifications for the job. The Mormon leaders knew him, and what buttons to push.


The $400 dollar story was published by D. B. Austin of Monson, Mass. He was also the person who interviewed Matilda Davison and he and a Reverend Storrs published the interview as a letter she had written. Matilda denied writing the letter, but did say that in the main, it was correct.

However, Hurlbut, in an interview with Robert Patterson Jr. denied it. Here is an excerpt from the interview:
Robert Patterson Jr. in 1879 wrote: I also told Mr. Hurlbut, frankly, that I had seen the statement published, though without any authority given for it, that he had sold the real `Manuscript Found' to the Mormons for $400. He indignantly repelled the charge and with no little excitement mentioned several circumstances (his being put under bonds by Joe Smith to keep the peace, his life being threatened by the Mormons, &c.,) to show the improbability of any such alleged bargain and sale.


His wife, Maria as quoted by William Kelley in the 1884 Braden Kelley debate, corroborates that assertion.
Maria Hurlbut wrote: Mr. Hurlbut never obtained but one manuscript from Mrs. Davison. That one he let E. D. Howe have. When Mrs. (Spaulding) Davison let him have it, he said he promised to return it; and when he let Howe have it, Howe promised to restore it to Mrs. Spaulding, but he never did. Hulburt spent about six months time and a good deal of money looking up the Spaulding manuscript and other evidence, but he was disappointed in not finding what he wanted. This was the reason he turned the whole thing over to Howe. He never was satisfied with what he found, and while on his death-bed he would have given everything he had in the world, could he have been certain there was ever a "Manuscript Found," as claimed, similar to the Book of Mormon.


I have already offered as further evidence that this manuscript was not exhibited at the 1834 trial of Hurlbut. Briggs was the attorney for Hurlbut and Dowen was a witness for Hurbut in the case.
The whole affair of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon was testified to by Joseph Smith, and yet no documents or testimony were offered in rebuttal. Briggs boasted as to how strenuously he had cross examined Joseph, yet did not mention that manuscript then. If Hurlbut had possession of that manuscript, and if Briggs and Dowen had seen it, unless they all were incredibly stupid, it would have been thrown up in Joseph's face during that trial.
It was Hurlbut's frenzied desire to bring Joseph Smith down, yet passed up this golden opportunity to bring him crashing down in flames.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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Unh-- you changed the subject. Hurlbut was not exactly the kind of virtuous person needed for such a project. Mormons could dig up all kinds of dirt on him.
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_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote:Unh-- you changed the subject. Hurlbut was not exactly the kind of virtuous person needed for such a project. Mormons could dig up all kinds of dirt on him.



I was pointing out that it is very unlikely that Hurlbut obtained but on manuscript from Matilda Davison's trunk. He and his wife both denied it.

Hurlbut's reputation hit a thudding low after the Chrdon trial where he was put under a peace bond. It was right after that trial that he turned everything over to E.D. Howe.

We know just what manuscript that D. P. Hurlbut retrieved and gave to Howe. It is the one that Matilda Davison described as being about a third the size of the Book of Mormon, which fell into her hands after Solomon's death, and which she carefully preserved. And that is the only novel or novelette length manuscript that it can be ascertained that Solomon wrote. Everything else is conjecture with extremely tenuous evidence for a basis.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

I was just working on that very subject.
N. James A Briggs, D. Philastus Hurlbut's lawyer (Geauga County.: 1875)
1.
 I regret that I have not been successful in obtaining for you a copy of "Mormonism Unveiled," -- a book written and published by Mr. Howe, of Painesville, Ohio, some forty years ago, and written when the headquarters of Mormonism were at Kirtland, Ohio. In the winter of 1833-34, a self-constituted committee of citizens of Willoughby, Mentor, and Painesville met a number of times at the house of the late Mr. Warren Corning, of Mentor, to investigate the Mormon humbug. At one of the meetings we had before us the original manuscript of the Rev. Solomon Spaulding, who came to Ashtabula County, Ohio, from Monson, Mass. It was entitled, "The ___________; or, The Manuscript Found." It was obtained from Mr. Patterson, or Peterson, a publisher of Pittsburg, Pa., with whom negotiations had once been made towards its publication. From this work of the Rev. Mr. Spaulding the Mormon Bible was constructed. I do not think there can be any doubt of this. It was the opinion of the committee after comparing the Mormon Bible with the manuscript. The style of composition, the names, etc., were the same. (Codman, J. 1881, P. 222)

2.
In the winter of 1833-34, or in the early spring of 1834, a number of gentlemen in Willoughby who felt an interest in the Mormon question appointed themselves a committee to look into the matter. They were Judge Nehemiah Allen, who had been an associate Judge of the county of Cuyahoga, a representative in the Legislature; Dr. George W. Card, an intelligent physician, Samuel Wilson, an active and energetic business man; Jonathan Lapham, a lawyer of many years at the bar, and myself, a very young lawyer. We met at the house of Mr. W. Corning, in Mentor, now the Garfield place, a well-to-do and independent farmer. Dr. P. Hurlbut also met with us. He lived in Kirtland and during the winter and spring had given much time in looking up evidence and documents to prove that Mormonism was a delusion. He had much of the evidence that he had collected with him. Now I am very sure he had the identical story that you have printed with him. I remember about the ancient fort at Conneaut Creek, the mound, and the statement of finding the manuscript about the Indians. I have no doubt that Hurlbut, as he says, gave the story to Mr. E. D. Howe. But I believe he had also with him, and we had before us in that investigation, the original "Manuscript Found" written by Rev. Solomon Spaulding. I have said and believed for more than fifty years that I have seen and had in my hands the original "Manuscript Found" from which the Mormon Bible was made.
I have no doubt we had the "Manuscript Found" before us, that we compared it with the Mormon Bible, that the style in which the "Manuscript Found" was written was the same as that of the Mormon Bible. The names -- peculiar -- were the same, not to be forgotten. The names Lehi, Nephi, Maroni, etc., and the expression "and it came to pass" often repeated. This manuscript did not go to Mr. Howe. What did Hurlbut do with it? Some few years ago I wrote to him and asked him who had it -- what he did with it. He did not answer my letter. He received it, as it was not returned to me. Dr. Hurlbut died in Ohio two years ago last June. He is silent now, the grave closed over him. (Deming, 1888)

3.
[Composite statement assembled by Dale Broadhurst from actual sources which are difficult to find1, other than Codman and Deming]
A few days before Christmas our "Committee" reassembled itself in Mentor and prepared a few sharp words for Hurlbut. The man presented himself with copious apologies for having let the cat out of the bag before sharing his findings with our little group. His excuse was that he had obtained such startling evidence documenting the Mormon fraud that he feared for his life and thought it best to make the exposure public to as many persons as possible and as quickly as possible. This justification of his aroused the curiosity of the Committee members and we all sat down to pour over dozens of signed and certified statements Hurlbut had brought back from Ontario and Wayne counties in New York. But, as he then said and as I still now believe, his "biggest fish" was a pile of tattered old manuscripts, retrieved from an old attic near Syracuse and a defunct publishing firm in Pittsburgh, or so he said. These, he remarked, were the "bones upon which Sidney Rigdon hung the meat of Mormonism."
The manuscripts were written with a quill pen and in a crabbed, old-fashioned hand. They appeared to us to be little more than a useless pile of rubbish, until Hurlbut began pointing out words, names, phrases, and then, whole sentences, that matched in partly or fully their numerous counterparts in his well-thumbed Book of Mormon. The style of composition, the names, etc., were the same. "This is it!" exclaimed Samuel Wilson, with a broad grin. "We publish these papers, along with certificates testifying to their authenticity, and the Mormon hoax is finished." Dr. Hurlbut solicited still more funds from the Committee, and promised to compile the lot of his documents into a readable book, to be published at Chardon within six weeks. By this time we had all become more than a little aware of the man's deficiencies in scholarly attainments, and the common feeling was that Hurlbut should retire from the field and allow more capable hands to carry out the publicizing of his great discoveries. This idea Hurlbut protested with much bombast and a great show of hurt feelings …...
I have read the story written by Solomon Spaulding and published recently by the non-polygamous Josephite Mormons of Iowa. I have no doubt, as they profess, that Mr. Howe obtained this piece of work from Hurlbut early in 1834. We had this thin tale before us on the table in Mentor, along with a few other scribblings of a similar kind. I remember then reading about the ancient ruined fort on Conneaut Creek, the mound within which the writer claimed to find some ancient records, etc. But we also had before us, and we compared it closely with the Mormon Bible, a longer, more finished story, which I have ever since believed was the "Manuscript Found" and the basis for the Book of Mormon. The words of that story were written in the same style as the text of the Mormon Bible. The unique names -- singular examples of concoction -- were the same as in the Mormon book, not to be forgotten. This other, larger manuscript was not put into the hands of Mr. Howe. What did Hurlbut do with it? Some years back I wrote to him, reminding him that he and I were the two surviving participants in those almost forgotten meetings at Mentor, and asking him what he had done with the "Manuscript Found." He died without ever replying to my questions. Sources are listed in this link: http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga/saga05a.htm Oct. 1886 Detroit Michigan Christian Herald. Jan 19, 1884, Cleveland Leader. Jan 31, 1886 New York Tribune. March 11, 1886 Honolulu Bulletin. Sept 9, 1886, New York Watchman. Oct 21, 1886, Detroit Michigan Christian Herald. April 1887, Washington D. C. Evening Star. March 5, 1888 New York Times

R. Mathilda Spalding McKinstry (Conneaut and Amity: 1886
I have read much of the Manuscript Story Conneaut Creek which you sent me. I know that it is not the Manuscript Found which contained the words "Nephi, Mormon, Maroni, and Lamanites." Do the Mormons expect to deceive the public by leaving off the title page -- Conneaut Creek and calling it Manuscript Found and Manuscript Story.
(Deming, 1888)http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA/natr1988.htm#120088-1f

S. Redick McKee, boarder with Spalding family
with Matilda Spalding McKinstry. (Conneaut and Amity: 1886)
When the weather was inclement I occasionally visited him in his room, and almost always found him at his table, reading or writing. One day when I called he was writing upon foolscap paper, taken from some old account book. My curiosity was excited, and I said to him, that if he was writing letters I could furnish him with more suitable paper. He replied that he was not writing letters, but at another time when I had leisure he would tell me more about it....
[Reminiscing with his old friend, Matilda Spalding McKinstry] She corroborated her father's statement about his removal to Conneaut in 1809, his examining the Indian mounds &c, and distinctly recollected that he wrote two or more stories in support of the theory that the Indians of North America were lineal descendants of the Jews from Palestine. In the first of these he brought the Jews from Palestine to America via Italy during the reign of Constantine, and set forth that at Rome they engaged shipping to convey them to some place in Great Britain, but encountered stormy weather and were finally wrecked somewhere on the coast of New England. What became of the manuscript of this story she did not know with certainty but understood that it was published in some Eastern review or magazine. This romance he afterwards abandoned and set about writing a more probable story founded on the history of the ten lost tribes of Israel. She thought her father must have had wonderful powers of imagination and memory, great command of language and facility of description. Many of his descriptions were of a historical and religious character. Others were grotesque and ludicrous in the extreme. But touching these I will give below his daughter's (Mrs. McKinstry's) recollections, recently narrated by her to me, which I think more full and explanatory than my own. She remembered that in one of them, touching the mode of warfare in that day, (being hand to hand or man with man) he represented one of the parties having streaks of red paint upon their cheeks and foreheads to distinguish them from enemies in battle. This story he called "The Manuscript Found." It purported to give a history of the ten tribes, their disputes and dissensions concerning the religion of their fathers, their division into two parties; one called Nephites the other Lamanites; their bloody wars, followed by reunion and migration via the Red Sea to the Pacific Ocean; their residence for a long time in China; their crossing the ocean by Behrings Straits in North America, thus becoming the progenitors of the Indians who have inhabited or now live on this continent. This was the story which her Uncle John, Mr. Lake, Mr. Miller and other neighbors heard him read at Conneaut on different occasions. They were all much interested in it and advised him strongly to have it published......He made the journey and by subtlety and lying obtained an order from Mrs. D. on her brother -- Mr. Sabine – for it, promising that it should be returned to her in a short time. This promise was never fulfilled. Returning to Conneaut, he obtained a certificate from several gentlemen that it was in the handwriting of Mr. Spaulding, delivered it to the Mormons, got his pay – some $400 or $500 -- and went his way. What eventually became of this manuscript is not known, but it was probably destroyed. So the whole matter remains to a great extent a mystery yet unsolved. (Deming, 1888)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA ... #120088-1f)
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

I'm sorry, my color-coding for what pertains to Oberlin Manuscript Story and what pertains to Manuscript Found (and Lost) got lost in the cut and paste. I'm sure you can figure it out, if you want. They were two very different, but related stories.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

MCB wrote:It is a losing debate, Marg.


It's not a matter of being a "losing debate" it's a matter of understanding. And I still don't understand the issue Dan & Glenn have with the "lost tribe" as being a key issue for them. by the way, I don't expect the witnesses to have perfect recall.

It will be another 3, 4 days or so before I can spend any time on this discussion, even just reading it.
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

marg wrote:It's not a matter of being a "losing debate" it's a matter of understanding.
Cool. A lot of that debate seemed rather irrelevant to me. It is all a matter of the twice lost tribes story. LOL
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »



MCB your are quoting James R. Briggs, who was Hurlbut's lawyer at the 1834 trial. He writes in a letter in 1875 that it was Hurlbut who brought charges against Joseph and that it was Joseph that was bound over.

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs1/1881Codm.htm#pg222b

According to the court records and other history, this is an untruthful statement.

The there is Redick McKee who in 1869 said that Solomon's story was "a veritable history of the nations or tribes who inhabited Canaan when, or before, that country was invaded by the Israelites" which does not describe anything about the Oberlin manuscript or anything that any of the other witnesses have said. Not even in the same ball park. Yet later, he changes his story and sides with Matilda McKinstry.

Then there is Matilda McKinstry, who in an 1839 interview did not remember any of the names from the manuscript, yet in 1886 could remember them very clearly. Remarkable!!!!!!

McKee is even less reliable than Benjamin Winchester, who at least gave a correct description of one of the documents, whatever his source. Briggs is demonstrably untruthful, and McKinstry is contradictory, showing an amazing memory recall in her later years that she did not have when much younger.

I would say that those witnesses are underwhelming.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

I already have those holes plugged. Thank you, anyway. If you don't believe the DNA evidence, I am sure that you won't believe anything I have to write. You are certainly persistent.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote:I already have those holes plugged. Thank you, anyway. If you don't believe the DNA evidence, I am sure that you won't believe anything I have to write. You are certainly persistent.



What are you talking about DNA evidence? That has nothing to do with the S/R theory.
I will analyze any data that you may present and provide my perspectives on it. Although you say that you have those holes plugged, (I take it that you are talking about Briggs, McKee, and McKinstry) I will wait to see whether the cork holds or not.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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