Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

[_Roger]

Dan:

The statement he wrote on the Oberlin MS indicates that he for a time thought it was the MS described by his witnesses. At some point after that, he evidently changed his mind.

The statement only indicates that MSCC is the "writings of Solomon Spalding." It offers no indication that Hurlbut ever believed it was the MS described by his witnesses. A cursory reading shows that it does not contain the correct names, which was recognized as the key factor. In fact, that statement harmonizes with the Hurlbut statement reported by Dickinson we've been discussing.

Are you suggesting that Hurlbut's "I'm going to take Mormonism down" lectures included exhibitions of MSCC? Was any Spalding ms displayed to the public during those meetings?

What do you make of Brigg's and Dowen's statements?

[_MCB]

I have reviewed Dickinson's account of the interview with Hurlbut and his wife. It is obvious that there was a lot of past (and present?) intimidation from Mormons, some intimidation by Mrs. Dickinson and her lawyer, and a whole lotta lying goin' on. The story keeps changing.


Yes, I accept that interpretation-- that he was referring to Oberlin Manuscript Story, and a "never" should be inserted there.

[_MCB]

What I meant was, it’s based on information about Indian history in the Great Lakes Region, at leas how it was understood at the time—hence, his reference to “the Deliwares”, “Ohons”, “Siota River”, “Siotans”, “River Ohio”, “Kentucks”, “wigwams”, etc. The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, makes no connection with the reader’s world except through prophecy.

That is superficial stuff, based on superficial knowledge. The deeper story, supported by Native legends, Clavigero and Norse history (particularly Henri Mallet's fanciful interpretation of Norse history in Northern Antiquities) has some substance but with a substantially different time-line.

The mere withholding of Dowen's statement supports my hypothesis of Mormon intimidation in the case of the Hurlbuts.

At some point after that, he evidently changed his mind.

Mormons changed his mind.

[_GlennThigpen]

The mere withholding of Dowen's statement supports my hypothesis of Mormon intimidation in the case of the Hurlbuts.

At some point after that, he evidently changed his mind.

Mormons changed his mind.

What are you referring to about with holding Dowen's statements? I don't recall hearing anything about that before.

Glenn

[Guest]

My understanding is that Deming did not publish Dowen's statement, although he did keep it in his papers. Given his friendly relationship with the Mormons at Kirtland, and his private observation that they were uncouth credulous rabble, this is understandable.

He stated that he feared violent reaction if he were to choose to prosecute them.

[_Dan Vogel]

Roger,

The statement only indicates that MSCC is the "writings of Solomon Spalding." It offers no indication that Hurlbut ever believed it was the MS described by his witnesses. A cursory reading shows that it does not contain the correct names, which was recognized as the key factor. In fact, that statement harmonizes with the Hurlbut statement reported by Dickinson we've been discussing.

I don’t know how you get that conclusion. He says it was the same MS that his witnesses were testifying to.

Are you suggesting that Hurlbut's "I'm going to take Mormonism down" lectures included exhibitions of MSCC? Was any Spalding ms displayed to the public during those meetings?

I don’t know. I would have to review the evidence more carefully.

What do you make of Brigg's and Dowen's statements?

Same as above. But if they contradict the clear meaning of Hurlbut’s note, I would be skeptical.

[_MCB]

Same as above. But if they contradict the clear meaning of Hurlbut’s note, I would be skeptical.

If Hurlbut was under longstanding threat from Mormons, I would suspect what Hurlbut said and wrote. The couple's mere anxiety at the interview with Dickinson and her lawyer indicates SOMETHING.

The preponderance of the statements of others outweighs what they had to say.

[_GlennThigpen]

My understanding is that Deming did not publish Dowen's statement, although he did keep it in his papers. Given his friendly relationship with the Mormons at Kirtland, and his private observation that they were uncouth credulous rabble, this is understandable.

He stated that he feared violent reaction if he were to choose to prosecute them.

The statement was published in Deming's newspaper, Naked Truths About Mormonism in 1888. The statement was taken in January of 1885 and is a long rambling affair. Dowen died the next month at the age of eighty-nine.

I do not think there was much intimidation there.

If Hurlbut was under longstanding threat from Mormons, I would suspect what Hurlbut said and wrote. The couple's mere anxiety at the interview with Dickinson and her lawyer indicates SOMETHING.

The preponderance of the statements of others outweighs what they had to say.

There is no real evidence that Hurlbut was being intimidated by the LDS. He pretty much had his way and say until his trial. After that, it seemed that no one wanted to hear from him.

Most of the statements about any second manuscript come years later from Briggs, who demonstrably lied in at least one place in his statement, and John C. Dowen pretty much on his deathbed.


Glenn

[_MCB]

The statement was published in Deming's newspaper, Naked Truths About Mormonism in 1888.

OK you are right about that.

The Mormons warned Justice of the
Peace, Hanson, out of town.

There was
a distillery opposite the Temple,
and I never saw so much drunkenness
elsewhere. I threatened to complain
to the State authorities.

Why did he just threaten to complain to Ohio authorities?

[_GlennThigpen]

The statement was published in Deming's newspaper, Naked Truths About Mormonism in 1888.

OK you are right about that.

The Mormons warned Justice of the
Peace, Hanson, out of town.

There was
a distillery opposite the Temple,
and I never saw so much drunkenness
elsewhere. I threatened to complain
to the State authorities.

Why did he just threaten to complain to Ohio authorities?

What has that go to do with Hurlbut being intimidated by the LDS? We are getting way off track here.

Glenn