Fundamental Mormon Claims

[_Daniel Peterson]

I knew Elder Maxwell quite well.

I disagree with him on the notion of an "eternal now."

[_Markk]

I had no problem with it.

So unlike Dan, you would hold that scripture supports the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Ghost, are two separate entities? Please define what the Holy Spirit is that it can be everywhere at once? Is it a personage of some sorts, or is it, as the Jehovah Witnesses teach similar to a radar beam. Is this a standard teaching or has this teaching evolved?

Relative to man? No, God is already omni relative to man. Relative to the Gods? Yes.

Is it fair to say then the LDS church teaches that God is still growing in power and knowledge?

I believe God can read man's mind past and present and know to within a great deal of accuracy what a man will decide.

How?...what LDS CF would you use for this? Does He have the capability to get it wrong at times?

I know exactly what you are refering to. You don't seem to remember correctly at all. At worst GBH was thinking out loud as he formulated an answer that didn't put milk before meat. His formulated answer did not include not being sure the Church taught it.

That makes absolutely zero sense. The "worst" ? That implies in it's self that your not sure what GBH meant. After he was finished "thinking out loud" what was his answer? At "best" what was he thinking? CFR

MG

[_Markk]

I knew Elder Maxwell quite well.

I disagree with him on the notion of an "eternal now."

Actually your disagreeing with the prophet Joseph Smith, I just pulled out my copy of the History of the Church and checked out Maxwells cf.

page 597
The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever "the morning stars sang together" for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal "now;" he knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.

It seems your opinion is not in accordance with LDS doctrine and teachings. What would you use for a cf that God only knows what is knowable?

This also open up a discussion on who the great Jehovah is according to Joseph Smith here...the pre incarnate Christ, the LDS God of the Old Testament, or Elohim.

Take care
Mark

[_Daniel Peterson]

Actually your disagreeing with the prophet Joseph Smith

That depends.

I rather doubt it, actually.

I don't know what, exactly, is meant by the expression "one eternal 'now.'" Nor, I suspect, did Joseph Smith. Moreover, God's mode of knowing past, present, and future is so utterly beyond me and beyond my comprehension that I see little point in disputing about the details of something that we mortal humans cannot possibly grasp.

That God knows the future sufficiently well to save us, and not to be surprised or be frustrated in his plans, is, for me, rock solid, fundamental doctrine and essential to our faith or confidence in him. Beyond that, it's speculation, and about as worthwhile, in the long run, as a group of pre-schoolers discoursing on the mathematics of relativity theory.

There is no official or fundamental doctrine regarding the specific nature of God's knowledge of the future.

[_Mortal Man]

I think the future is genuinely undetermined, and, thus, not knowable in detail. Not even by an omniscient being. Even such a being can only know things that are knowable.

2 Nephi 27:6-24 and JST Isaiah 29:11-26 sound pretty detailed to me.

[_bcspace]

I had no problem with it.

So unlike Dan, you would hold that scripture supports the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Ghost, are two separate entities?

That aspect wasn't part of the quote you provided.

Relative to man? No, God is already omni relative to man. Relative to the Gods? Yes.

Is it fair to say then the LDS church teaches that God is still growing in power and knowledge?

Not necessarily.

I believe God can read man's mind past and present and know to within a great deal of accuracy what a man will decide.

How?...what LDS CF would you use for this? Does He have the capability to get it wrong at times?

That is my own perspective of God. I believe the Church teaches in a "relative to man" sense. I go farther in my own speculation but I don't call my own speculation LDS doctrine.

I know exactly what you are refering to. You don't seem to remember correctly at all. At worst GBH was thinking out loud as he formulated an answer that didn't put milk before meat. His formulated answer did not include not being sure the Church taught it.

That makes absolutely zero sense. The "worst" ?

It makes perfect sense. My own father often developed his answers out loud in response to queries.

That implies in it's self that your not sure what GBH meant.

I am quite sure what he meant.

After he was finished "thinking out loud" what was his answer? At "best" what was he thinking? CFR

You refered to it first. You provide it.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I think the future is genuinely undetermined, and, thus, not knowable in detail. Not even by an omniscient being. Even such a being can only know things that are knowable.

2 Nephi 27:6-24 and JST Isaiah 29:11-26 sound pretty detailed to me.

And well within the capacity of an enormously wise, unspeakably well-informed, and peerlessly powerful being to guarantee.

[_Mortal Man]

And well within the capacity of an enormously wise, unspeakably well-informed, and peerlessly powerful being to guarantee.

Coincidentally, yesterday marks the three year anniversary of the death of Edward Lorenz, who taught us that solutions of even very simple nonlinear equations typically become completely unpredictable in very short periods of time. His classic paper, Deterministic Nonperiodic Flow (which I happen to know something about), set the criteria for determining whether the behavior of a dynamical system can be predicted, given perfect knowledge of its initial conditions. He worked with very simple systems; i.e., "things to be acted upon" with mildly positive Lyapunov exponents, and proved that they become completely unpredictable in finite time. For example, you could not predict the weather in Provo one month from today even if you had absolutely perfect knowledge of the current state of every single atom in the Earth and Sun. Such initial value problems, cannot be predicted after a certain period of time, even by an enormously wise, unspeakably well-informed, peerlessly powerful, omniscient deity. Then how much less predictable are even longer term systems, comprised of "things to act", with hugely positive (arguably infinite) Lyapunov exponents?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I know that you think you're arguing against my position that God doesn't know the future in minute detail, but I'm powerless to imagine how you might believe that the paragraph just above cuts against me.

I think that God has perfectly, incomprehensibly, enormous power to make things happen that he intends to happen. It's not purely a matter of passive prediction.

[_Markk]

That depends.

I rather doubt it, actually.

I don't know what, exactly, is meant by the expression "one eternal 'now.'" Nor, I suspect, did Joseph Smith.

What!!! so Joseph Smith is just talking away without knowing what he's talking about? Come on Dan, the context of his statement is very clear to follow, that Jehovah knows all and is beyond time and space and is in the "past,present,and future."

Moreover, God's mode of knowing past, present, and future is so utterly beyond me and beyond my comprehension that I see little point in disputing about the details of something that we mortal humans cannot possibly grasp.

So, everything about God is, why stop with His foreknowledge?

That God knows the future sufficiently well to save us, and not to be surprised or be frustrated in his plans, is, for me, rock solid, fundamental doctrine and essential to our faith or confidence in him. Beyond that, it's speculation, and about as worthwhile, in the long run, as a group of pre-schoolers discoursing on the mathematics of relativity theory.

Well Dan I believe seeking to know God is the most important thing we can do. To seek Him and learn of Him is our main goal as a believer and it is why we were created.

Jesus Christ said, “… this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.)

Then shall we know, [if] we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter [and] former rain unto the earth. (Hosea 6:3)

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:6)

This is what the LORD says: "Don't let the wise boast in their wisdom, or the powerful boast in their power, or the rich boast in their riches.
But those who wish to boast should boast in this alone: that they truly know me and understand that I am the LORD who demonstrates unfailing love and who brings justice and righteousness to the earth, and that I delight in these things. I, the LORD, have spoken!
(Jer 9;23,24 NIV)

Relationships grow when we gain knowledge of that person. Personally I think we would all grow closer to God by seeking to know Him and His ways rather that the dribble that goes on these message boards. Do you believe you grow closer to God by wanting to understand His nature more fully, or by you promoting yourself on this board.

There is no official or fundamental doctrine regarding the specific nature of God's knowledge of the future.

There is more than enough LDS teaching on this. And the Bible is perfectly clear that God is All Knowing. All the hairs of our head are numbered Dan, even if in our case they are getting fewer by the Day. (somewhere in Luke?)

This whole conversation has reinforced my belief that "you guys" as apologist, shy away from core LDS doctrine.

Take care

MG