Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_Dan Vogel
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Marg,

This is an assumption on your part Dan that Smith believed what he was writing. The evidence is not good that he wrote the Book of Mormon on his own. And the evidence is he willingly used deception, at times just to manipulate or spin a yarn, at other times for personal gain. You've already argued in your book, he intentionally was deceptive in his treasure seeking younger days. In later years, his polygamy followed his extramarital affairs..and as a prophet he wanted a means to gain acceptance of his behavior. He'd be quite delusional if he actually thought God was forcing him to bed numerous women, including daughters and wives of the inner circle. So it's more likely Dan, as he learned throughout life from an early age... it's easy to manipulate some people.


Of course, you can always try reading Joseph Smith’s mind and say he wasn’t sincere or didn’t believe what he was saying or writing. My point was that the Book of Mormon wasn’t intended as a novel, which it would be if Spalding wrote it. The Book of Mormon is didactic—designed to promote religious values. Pointing to sins and manipulation doesn’t negate religious sincerity. Indeed, my thesis is that he used deception and manipulation to promote religion. That’s the moral dilemma he faced. Promoting good through these things. Part of Joseph Smith’s reasoning is revealed in Moroni 7:

“Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God … wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God” (7:12-13).

Joseph Smith had an elaborate system of justifying religious deception, or anything he wanted. Joseph Smith wasn’t the only one who believed in concubinage and “spiritual wifery”—many religious people did, which is why I directed you to that footnote in my book. You might consider the possibility that he didn’t see such behavior as sinful, and that pointing to such behavior isn’t the slam dunk you think it is. We can argue endlessly about his sincerity, but I’ll settle for an acknowledgement that the Book of Mormon is a pious fraud, whether or not Joseph Smith was.

I realize what I'm going to suggest to you might seem preposterous given your assumptions, but I think it's a good probability his behavior indicated he didn't believe in an 'interfering in man..sort of God'. He used religion to gain attention, power and his livelihood.


I would say that even if that is true, it doesn’t negate a belief that he was doing good. It’s a patronizing attitude, to be sure, and he probably believed he deserved the things he sought as rewards for helping us. The world needed his leadership, even if he had to do it through deception.

Dan the only way any of the theories in this case, can be disproved is by having positive proof of how the book was written...because Spalding is a probability source for the Book of Mormon..given the data..just as Smith is. So we are left with inductive reasoning instead. It's a matter of looking at all the evidence which has been gathered, evaluating that evidence and reaching a best fit conclusion. If either side had "proof" there'd be no need for any accumulation of evidence to evaluate.


Be this as it may, you are missing the point I made to Roger. Roger was formulating an argument that derived a positive conclusion from negative evidence—“We don’t know that such and such isn’t the case, therefore it is the case.” Argumentum ad ignorantiam.


Your position would be stronger and the S/R weaker, if Smith showed interest in writing in the years before hand, if he was observed by objective individuals to dictate the Book of Mormon, if he had the sort of knowledge and interest in subject matter of the Book of Mormon, if there weren't the parallels to Spalding in the discovery narrative of MSCC and what Smith described as the discovery narrative for the Book of Mormon, if there weren't so many obvious lies associated with the Book of Mormon and coming from the Book of Mormon witnesses and Smith, if Smith wasn't known as a treasure seeking con artist and opportunist..the list goes on Dan.


I have already mentioned that Lucy said that Joseph Smith was telling stories about the ancient Americans “as if he lived among them all his life” (paraphrase), beginning in September 1823. According to Orsamus Turner, Joseph Smith was a member of the Palmyra debating club, helping them solve some difficult questions about ethics, and that he was also a passable Methodist exhorter.

There aren’t any verbal similarities between Joseph Smith and Spalding’s discovery narrative. The similarities you see are situational only. Both are resolving the Mound Builder Myth by discovering a record preserved under a rock—and that’s where the similarities end. You mentioned the importance of differences, so why not do it here too? How else could Spalding begin such a story? Spalding follows a predictable narrative. He finds a Latin text on parchment, which he can translate. What could be more natural for a learned man. Joseph Smith doesn’t follow a predictable story, but it was nevertheless believable to his treasure seeking friends and family. Joseph Smith is told where to find the record by a treasure-guardian spirit. It is written on gold plates, not parchment, and it is written in Reformed Egyptian, which can only be translated through Joseph Smith’s gift of seeing in a stone.

You have never shown “many obvious lies … coming from the Book of Mormon witnesses.” Rather, their testimonies about Joseph Smith’s method of dictating the Book of Mormon without MS, which is supported by his inability to replaces the lost beginning, is another reason for rejecting Spalding’s witnesses. All of which you and Roger have dealt with rather feebly.

The weakness in your approach, is you start off with the assumption Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, and that he was a pious fraud and then you try to make some facts fit, dismissing facts that don't. So you dismiss the S/R witnesses as being confused despite that confusion doesn't describe their recall when they say on some things they 'clearly remember'.


Some say the clearly remember. Like Miller, who thought he recognized verbatim passages in a portion of the Book of Mormon that had been according to your theory rewritten twice. Miller’s not credible. Other witnesses, like Martha Spalding, confessed the intervening years prevents her remember with clarity, but that the Book of Mormon brought back memories. That’s a problematic situation. We have no way of accessing their memories, and a distinct possibility exists that they were wrong. This possibility becomes more certain with the full array of evidence surrounding the Book of Mormon’s production. So, since the Book of Mormon came through Joseph Smith’s mouth while his head was in the hat, I assume he was the author.

You accept the Book of Mormon witnesses as credible despite they must be the most incredible witnesses one could possibly imagine.


How so? You have yet to back up such accusations.

You look for parallels in the Book of Mormon with Joseph's life even though the parallels are tenuous. You psychoanalyze Smith to suit your purpose..which is to defend the Smith only/pious fraud assumption.


You are not following me here. I didn’t look for parallels to prove Joseph Smith was author over the Spalding theory. My analysis of the Book of Mormon assumes Joseph Smith is the author to learn about Joseph Smith. Authorship is a separate debate. I use the parallels like any parallel evidence. It is only a small part of a complex analysis. Most of it can’t be used in this fashion. Take the quote above from Moroni. This is used to show how Joseph Smith might have rationalized pious fraud, or how he may have believed his project was inspired although it wasn’t real history. It tells me something about Joseph Smith without being a parallel or something that can be used to decide authorship questions. If I had been preoccupied with polemical concerns, I couldn’t mine the book for these kinds of insights. The same thing would be true if I were preoccupied with the ancient vs. modern debate.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Dan Vogel
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Roger wrote:Dan:

Again, make an argument I can assess.


Have you taken a look at grammatical error distribution patterns across the entire Book of Mormon text?


I'm waiting for you to do it! It's your proof, not mine. I'm not going to do your work for you. You implied an argument, now finish it!
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Dan Vogel
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:26 am

Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Roger,

Dale gives 21 parallels:

1. Date of the Finding of the Ancient Records

c. 1811

1823 to 1827

= No parallel.

2. Place of the Finding of the Ancient Records

"Near the west bank of the Coneaught River there are the remains of an ancient fort."

"Convenient to the village of Manchester stands a hill of considerable size."

= No parallel.

3. The Exact Location

"on the top of a small mound"

"on the west side of this hill not
far from the top"

=Close. But where else would a record of the Mound Builders be? Even the Kinderhook plates came out of a small mound. Many dug into the mounds looking for treasure, including Joseph Smith.

4. The Finder of the Ancient Records

"As I was walking"

"I arrived there"

=Really? People who think parallels like this are significant have no right criticizing mine.

5. Discovery of the Stone

"I happened to tred on a flat stone... exactly horizontal"

"under a stone of considerable size"

=Similar. In Indian Origins, I discuss the discovery in the mounds of such stone boxes, the lids also of stone. These vaults contained skeletons with other artifacts. Money diggers hoped to find such boxes with valuables in them. Interestingly, Joseph Smith’s account includes something like a toad that rises up into a spirit of a man that attacks him and prevents his taking the plates. In OC’w 1834-35 history, Joseph Smith sets the plates down to look for other valuables in the box, and because his mind is on treasure-seeking the plates magically reappear in the box he is present from taken them by a shock. Spalding’s lid was flat, but Joseph Smith’s was rounding.

6. Lifting of the Stone

"With the assistance of a lever I raised the stone"

"I obtained a lever which I got fixed under... the stone and... raised it up"

=Similar. But what else is going to happen? I think Dynamite was out of the question.


7. 07. Under the Stone

"its ends and sides rested on stones... an artificial cave... its sides were lined with stones"

"The box . . . was formed by laying stones together"

=Similar, but significantly different. Joseph Smith’s box is made of stones set in some kind of cement and only large enough for the items it contained, whereas Spalding’s box was large enough to admit a person, who once inside finds entrance into a large chamber, where the record is found.

8. The Cover Stone (second iteration)

"Here I noticed a big flat stone fixed in the form of a door"

"under a stone of considerable size"

=No parallel.

9. The Record Box

"I found an earthen box with a cover which shut it perfectly tight. The box was two feet in length"

"The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement"

=No parallel. This is Spalding’s third compartment in the floor of the cavity, apparently made of fired clay.

10. Inside the Box

"I found that it contained 28 (rolls) of parchment"

"I looked in and there indeed did I behold the plates"

=Similar, but significantly different.

11. Removal of the Ancient Records

"My mind filled with awful sensations which crowded fast upon me (and) would hardly permit my hands to remove this venerable deposit"

"I made an attempt to take them out but was forbidden (by Nephi)

"immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me"

=Similar. Joseph Smith’s hindrance from moving the record stems out of treasure lore, which has been part of his own experiences, rather than something he read in Spalding’s MS.

12. Format and Language of the Records

"written in (an) eligant hand with Roman letters and in the Latin language"

"characters... represent words... A Sacred Roll... is preserved among the records... deposited under the care of a priest"

"the art of expressing ideas by certain marks or characters"

"I make a record of my proceedings in... the language of my father... the language of the Egyptians"

"(the plates) were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters" Book of Mormon:538

"we have written this record... in the characters... reformed Egyptian"

=No parallel. Spalding would not have chosen Egyptian because he wouldn’t be able to translate the record. He might have chosen Hebrew, but not Egyptian.

13. A Translation Needed

"To publish a translation... the translator who wishes..."

"Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God"

=No parallel. Joseph Smith’s use of a stone to translate comes from his treasure-seeking world, not Spalding. It was later called a Urim and Thummim to disguise its magic origins. Spalding translated a dead but known language through learning.

14. A Personal History

"the roll... contained a history of the author's life"

"I will give a succinct account of his life "

"An account of Lehi and..."the account of Nephi"

"I shall make an account of my proceedings . . . an account of
mine own life"

=Similar, but not significant. The Book of Mormon is more complicated since it was original intended as Mormon’s abridgement of various records. I gets personal when Mormon introduces himself in Alma (I think), and in his own book. Originally the opening books were also Mormon in third person narrative, but they were replaces with first person accounts of Nephi, etc.

15. Multiple Histories and Complex Compilations

"a history of... that part of America"

"a history of its... inhabitants"

"an account of the former inhabitants of this continent"

"the history of this people"

=Similar, but not significant.

16. The Records are an Abridgment

"Extracts of the most interesting" and important matters contained
in this roll"

"Behold I make an abridgement of the record"

"I write a small abridgement"

"plates on which were engraved an abridgement of the records"
=Similar, but significant. What else could a history of a nation be but an abridgment? This is what the Old Testament and Apocrypha do.


17. The Future Audience

"in some future age this part...will be inhabited by Europeansand a history of its present
inhabitants . . . would be...valuable . . ." I (proceed) to write"one and deposit it in a box"

"I write... things that... may be of worth . . . in some future day"

"a record of my people . . . be brought forth at some future day""

"these things shall be hid up to come forth unto the Gentiles"

=Similar. Both records were written for a purpose and hidden to be found. Without this element, neither story would work. Spalding needed to explain why Romans would keep a record that no one in ancient America would be able to read.

18. A Carefully Hidden Record

"a history... would be...valuable... I (proceed) to write one and deposit it in a box...
so that the ravages of time will have no effect upon it"

Ammaron had deposited the records... that they might not be destroyed"

"write an abridgement of...history... to hide it up in the earth and that it should come forth... in the last days"

=Similar, but logically necessary given the manner of deposit and discover discussed above.

19. A Word to the Reader

"gentle reader... thy future existance entreats thee to peruse this volume with a clear head,
a pure heart"

"when ye shall read these things... ask God... with a sincere heart"

"and to the reader I bid farewell"

=Yes, the obligatory farewell. However, the Book of Mormon is saying something far more significant than anything Spalding would dare to write.

20. A Bedroom Vision

"(Spalding?) dreamed that he himself... opened a great mound... found a written history... respecting the civilized people... This story suggested . . . (his) writing a novel" 1855 Josiah Spalding Letter

"I had retired... for the night...a personage appeared at my bedside standing in the air . . . He called me by name, and said ...there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants"

=A stretch. Even if one assumes Spalding had a dream, no one knew until 1855. Joseph Smith’s thrice-repeated dream-vision of a treasure guardian had precedent in treasure lore.

21. Part of the Record Kept Back

"should this attempt to throw off the veil... meet the approbation of the public, I shall then (issue)... a more minute publication"

"the volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed" (to come forth only at a future time when humankind is ready to read their content)

=Similar. The possibility of more text goes hand-in-hand with an abridged record. Spalding needed to keep the door open for financial gain, Joseph Smith for expanding his theology.

Roger, not exactly a compelling list. Most are of no consequence. The stories are only similar in ways one might expect of authors writing on the same topic. The similarities derive from the demands created by the situation—nothing directly links the two stories.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
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_Roger
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Roger »

Glenn:

Roger, Dale and MCB have been pulling parallels from many different texts to phrases and ideas in the Book of Mormon. They seem to be all over the place. The point that Ben tried to make to you is that you must construct some sort of baseline by which to judge the relevance of any parallels. MCB may be doing so in her yet to be published book, but thus far, in these discussions, only the parallels have been noted without any baseline or any method of showing pertinence except the "gut" feeling by some that they are too numerous to be coincience.


What is your baseline?

Roger, in one post you noted how the grammatical correctness of Spalding's manuscript and how ungrammatical is the Book of Mormon. How grammatical is the works of Syndey Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery?


From my limited observations Sidney's writings are fairly grammatically correct but he does inject some typical dialect characteristic of Appalachian English. Oliver tends to write more grammatically correct than Joseph but he also makes fairly frequent grammatical mistakes.

Unless Solomon went ungrammatical in the alleged second manuscript, the grammar problems in the Book of Mormon would seem to legislate againts any substantial direct contribution, which would disagree with many of the witnesses who said that the historical parts were the same without alteration, even parts verbatim.


In fact the situation is precisely the opposite. Sections for which S/R predicts an underlying Spalding text have a much lower occurrence of grammatical errors. The lowest occurrence falls in sections plagiarized from the KJVB--as we would expect.

If Joseph Smith is responsible for all the content, how do you explain a noticeable drop in error frequency?
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Roger »

Dan:

Have you taken a look at grammatical error distribution patterns across the entire Book of Mormon text?


I'm waiting for you to do it! It's your proof, not mine. I'm not going to do your work for you. You implied an argument, now finish it!


No, I simply asked a question which you apparently can't answer without turning into a contest.

While the idea to search for error patterns was mine, I did not have the expertise or time to carry it out. However my suggestion was taken and the research is being carried out. I can't go into detail or cite specifics at this point, which is why I asked if you had ever examined the text for error patterns.

Since you are a scholar who would presumably have the time and means to carry out such an investigation, which falls within your area of interest, I would encourage you to conduct such a search.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Roger
_Emeritus
Posts: 1905
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:29 am

Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Roger »

Dan wrote:

Roger,

Dale gives 21 parallels:

1. Date of the Finding of the Ancient Records

c. 1811

1823 to 1827

= No parallel.

2. Place of the Finding of the Ancient Records

"Near the west bank of the Coneaught River there are the remains of an ancient fort."

"Convenient to the village of Manchester stands a hill of considerable size."

= No parallel.

3. The Exact Location

"on the top of a small mound"

"on the west side of this hill not
far from the top"

=Close. But where else would a record of the Mound Builders be? Even the Kinderhook plates came out of a small mound. Many dug into the mounds looking for treasure, including Joseph Smith.

4. The Finder of the Ancient Records

"As I was walking"

"I arrived there"

=Really? People who think parallels like this are significant have no right criticizing mine.

5. Discovery of the Stone

"I happened to tred on a flat stone... exactly horizontal"

"under a stone of considerable size"

=Similar. In Indian Origins, I discuss the discovery in the mounds of such stone boxes, the lids also of stone. These vaults contained skeletons with other artifacts. Money diggers hoped to find such boxes with valuables in them. Interestingly, Joseph Smith’s account includes something like a toad that rises up into a spirit of a man that attacks him and prevents his taking the plates. In OC’w 1834-35 history, Joseph Smith sets the plates down to look for other valuables in the box, and because his mind is on treasure-seeking the plates magically reappear in the box he is present from taken them by a shock. Spalding’s lid was flat, but Joseph Smith’s was rounding.

6. Lifting of the Stone

"With the assistance of a lever I raised the stone"

"I obtained a lever which I got fixed under... the stone and... raised it up"

=Similar. But what else is going to happen? I think Dynamite was out of the question.


7. 07. Under the Stone

"its ends and sides rested on stones... an artificial cave... its sides were lined with stones"

"The box . . . was formed by laying stones together"

=Similar, but significantly different. Joseph Smith’s box is made of stones set in some kind of cement and only large enough for the items it contained, whereas Spalding’s box was large enough to admit a person, who once inside finds entrance into a large chamber, where the record is found.

8. The Cover Stone (second iteration)

"Here I noticed a big flat stone fixed in the form of a door"

"under a stone of considerable size"

=No parallel.

9. The Record Box

"I found an earthen box with a cover which shut it perfectly tight. The box was two feet in length"

"The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement"

=No parallel. This is Spalding’s third compartment in the floor of the cavity, apparently made of fired clay.

10. Inside the Box

"I found that it contained 28 (rolls) of parchment"

"I looked in and there indeed did I behold the plates"

=Similar, but significantly different.

11. Removal of the Ancient Records

"My mind filled with awful sensations which crowded fast upon me (and) would hardly permit my hands to remove this venerable deposit"

"I made an attempt to take them out but was forbidden (by Nephi)

"immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me"

=Similar. Joseph Smith’s hindrance from moving the record stems out of treasure lore, which has been part of his own experiences, rather than something he read in Spalding’s MS.

12. Format and Language of the Records

"written in (an) eligant hand with Roman letters and in the Latin language"

"characters... represent words... A Sacred Roll... is preserved among the records... deposited under the care of a priest"

"the art of expressing ideas by certain marks or characters"

"I make a record of my proceedings in... the language of my father... the language of the Egyptians"

"(the plates) were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters" Book of Mormon:538

"we have written this record... in the characters... reformed Egyptian"

=No parallel. Spalding would not have chosen Egyptian because he wouldn’t be able to translate the record. He might have chosen Hebrew, but not Egyptian.

13. A Translation Needed

"To publish a translation... the translator who wishes..."

"Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God"

=No parallel. Joseph Smith’s use of a stone to translate comes from his treasure-seeking world, not Spalding. It was later called a Urim and Thummim to disguise its magic origins. Spalding translated a dead but known language through learning.

14. A Personal History

"the roll... contained a history of the author's life"

"I will give a succinct account of his life "

"An account of Lehi and..."the account of Nephi"

"I shall make an account of my proceedings . . . an account of
mine own life"

=Similar, but not significant. The Book of Mormon is more complicated since it was original intended as Mormon’s abridgement of various records. I gets personal when Mormon introduces himself in Alma (I think), and in his own book. Originally the opening books were also Mormon in third person narrative, but they were replaces with first person accounts of Nephi, etc.

15. Multiple Histories and Complex Compilations

"a history of... that part of America"

"a history of its... inhabitants"

"an account of the former inhabitants of this continent"

"the history of this people"

=Similar, but not significant.

16. The Records are an Abridgment

"Extracts of the most interesting" and important matters contained
in this roll"

"Behold I make an abridgement of the record"

"I write a small abridgement"

"plates on which were engraved an abridgement of the records"
=Similar, but significant. What else could a history of a nation be but an abridgment? This is what the Old Testament and Apocrypha do.


17. The Future Audience

"in some future age this part...will be inhabited by Europeansand a history of its present
inhabitants . . . would be...valuable . . ." I (proceed) to write"one and deposit it in a box"

"I write... things that... may be of worth . . . in some future day"

"a record of my people . . . be brought forth at some future day""

"these things shall be hid up to come forth unto the Gentiles"

=Similar. Both records were written for a purpose and hidden to be found. Without this element, neither story would work. Spalding needed to explain why Romans would keep a record that no one in ancient America would be able to read.

18. A Carefully Hidden Record

"a history... would be...valuable... I (proceed) to write one and deposit it in a box...
so that the ravages of time will have no effect upon it"

Ammaron had deposited the records... that they might not be destroyed"

"write an abridgement of...history... to hide it up in the earth and that it should come forth... in the last days"

=Similar, but logically necessary given the manner of deposit and discover discussed above.

19. A Word to the Reader

"gentle reader... thy future existance entreats thee to peruse this volume with a clear head,
a pure heart"

"when ye shall read these things... ask God... with a sincere heart"

"and to the reader I bid farewell"

=Yes, the obligatory farewell. However, the Book of Mormon is saying something far more significant than anything Spalding would dare to write.

20. A Bedroom Vision

"(Spalding?) dreamed that he himself... opened a great mound... found a written history... respecting the civilized people... This story suggested . . . (his) writing a novel" 1855 Josiah Spalding Letter

"I had retired... for the night...a personage appeared at my bedside standing in the air . . . He called me by name, and said ...there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants"

=A stretch. Even if one assumes Spalding had a dream, no one knew until 1855. Joseph Smith’s thrice-repeated dream-vision of a treasure guardian had precedent in treasure lore.

21. Part of the Record Kept Back

"should this attempt to throw off the veil... meet the approbation of the public, I shall then (issue)... a more minute publication"

"the volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed" (to come forth only at a future time when humankind is ready to read their content)

=Similar. The possibility of more text goes hand-in-hand with an abridged record. Spalding needed to keep the door open for financial gain, Joseph Smith for expanding his theology.

Roger, not exactly a compelling list. Most are of no consequence. The stories are only similar in ways one might expect of authors writing on the same topic. The similarities derive from the demands created by the situation—nothing directly links the two stories.


This is a good example of why I asked beastie for her opinion--as someone who's mind is not already made up. Obviously your mind is already made up, so, exactly like the Mormons, you pick at and exaggerate the differences you see in the stories. Of course there are differences! What else would we expect? If Joseph Smith were to have copied the story verbatim we wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be game over. But Joseph Smith wasn't stupid enough to do that.

There are some things worth noting in your response, however. Even with your mind biased against any possible connection here (because to admit such a connection would radically affect what you've been writing for years), you still use the word "similar" eleven times (which, out of 21 is a majority) you say "yes" once, "close" once and "A stretch" once. You reject only 7 parallels (at least four of which you should not have) and despite that your assessment is "not exactly a compelling list. Most are of no consequence."

Not surprisingly your conclusion is completely consistent with your bias. It will be interesting to see what beastie has to say.

The four parallels you reject which you should not have are:

8. The Cover Stone (second iteration)

"Here I noticed a big flat stone fixed in the form of a door"

"under a stone of considerable size"

=No parallel.


Of course this is a parallel. A stone conceals something underneath in both accounts.

9. The Record Box

"I found an earthen box with a cover which shut it perfectly tight. The box was two feet in length"

"The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement"

=No parallel. This is Spalding’s third compartment in the floor of the cavity, apparently made of fired clay.


Highlighting the differences in the face of glaring similarities is simply not valid. As I mentioned we EXPECT differences because Joseph Smith is smart enough not to copy verbatim. As beastie points out:

beastie wrote:A third possibility is that Smith, as he was wont to do, just picked up ideas from different sources and patched them altogether, so maybe this idea did come from Spalding, although that does not mean he plagiarized the entire thing - just picked it for ideas.


This is reasonable. This is what we would expect as opposed to a verbatim copy. The box is a valid parallel.

12. Format and Language of the Records

"written in (an) eligant hand with Roman letters and in the Latin language"

"characters... represent words... A Sacred Roll... is preserved among the records... deposited under the care of a priest"

"the art of expressing ideas by certain marks or characters"

"I make a record of my proceedings in... the language of my father... the language of the Egyptians"

"(the plates) were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters" Book of Mormon:538

"we have written this record... in the characters... reformed Egyptian"

=No parallel. Spalding would not have chosen Egyptian because he wouldn’t be able to translate the record. He might have chosen Hebrew, but not Egyptian.


This is where your logic really starts to get ridiculous. You reject the obvious parallel that both stories contain the discovery of written accounts in an ancient language that needed to be translated into English, by saying that "Spalding would not have chosen Egyptian because he wouldn’t be able to translate the record." So what? It doesn't matter what you think Spalding would or would not have chosen. The fact is the two accounts contain a parallel in that both stories contain the discovery of written accounts in an ancient language that needed to be translated into English. The parallel is quite valid.

13. A Translation Needed

"To publish a translation... the translator who wishes..."

"Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God"

=No parallel. Joseph Smith’s use of a stone to translate comes from his treasure-seeking world, not Spalding. It was later called a Urim and Thummim to disguise its magic origins. Spalding translated a dead but known language through learning.


This is utterly ridiculous. I expect better even from hopelessly biased LDS. To ignore the obvious parallel that a translation was needed--just like Dale says--and argue for no parallel because "Joseph Smith’s use of a stone to translate comes from his treasure-seeking world, not Spalding. It was later called a Urim and Thummim to disguise its magic origins. Spalding translated a dead but known language through learning." --doesn't even make sense. The parallel is quite valid.

So, in the end, you acknowledge 11 similarities, admit that one is "close," characterize another as "yes," label one "A stretch" and fallaciously reject 4. That's a grand total of 18 valid parallels with only 3 being questionable--and I'm sure Dale could adequately defend those, but, regardless there is no need to. 18 valid points of similarity in two fairly short, allegedly unconnected accounts SHOULD be enough for us to rule out coincidence.

But there is one more important dimension here that is being overlooked and that is the sequence of events is also similar. As I stated, both men 1. go for a walk near their homes while pondering the ancients 2. come across a curious stone 3. use a lever to dislodge it 4. find something other than dirt underneath 5. probe further to discover ancient manuscripts 6. discover that the manuscripts are not in English and need to be translated 7. rather than have someone else translate it, they do it themselves 8. discover that the content contains a history of the former inhabitants of this continent that turns out to be 9. multiple histories and complex compilations and abridgments --- all of this in the same sequential order.

So we not only have many striking similarities, we also find them coming in the same sequence. And all of this, not from some obscure writer we found using a computer search for similar phrases and themes, but because credible witnesses had ALREADY told us point blank there IS a connection BEFORE THESE PARALLELS EVEN EXISTED.

But for those who don't want to recognize a connection the answer will always be "similar, but..."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Dan Vogel
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Roger wrote:No, I simply asked a question which you apparently can't answer without turning into a contest.

While the idea to search for error patterns was mine, I did not have the expertise or time to carry it out. However my suggestion was taken and the research is being carried out. I can't go into detail or cite specifics at this point, which is why I asked if you had ever examined the text for error patterns.

Since you are scholar who would presumably have the time and means to carry out such an investigation, which falls within your area of interest, I would encourage you to conduct such a search.

The way you worded your question, it sounded like you had some evidence and argument I hadn’t considered. But I guess there was no real point after all.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
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_Roger
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Roger »

Dan wrote:

The way you worded your question, it sounded like you had some evidence and argument I hadn’t considered. But I guess there was no real point after all.


The point, to be blunt, is if you wanted to carry out an intellectually honest investigation--as opposed to simply bludgeoning perceived competition--you could do so.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_MCB
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

Roger, Dale and MCB have been pulling parallels from many different texts to phrases and ideas in the Book of Mormon. They seem to be all over the place. The point that Ben tried to make to you is that you must construct some sort of baseline by which to judge the relevance of any parallels. MCB may be doing so in her yet to be published book, but thus far, in these discussions, only the parallels have been noted without any baseline or any method of showing pertinence except the "gut" feeling by some that they are too numerous to be coincience.


As a matter of fact, I initially explored 1001 Nights, including some very obscure tales for parallels, to see if there were any significant Semitic resonances. The only Semitic resonances are with known Biblical and apocryphal literature available in the time of Spalding. Any from 1001 Nights I found quickly fell by the wayside as I explored the body of medieval Icelandic and British literature. Thank you. I will acknowledge that baseline.

Furthermore, with two sources for parallels, I find them both in Oberlin Manuscript Story and the chapters of the Book of Mormon commonly thought to be similar to the writings of Spalding. He explored other sources of the same genre later-- medieval Icelandic and British lit. Most of the Icelandic literature had been taken to repositories in Sweden, from which it was distributed, if not translated into English, at least available in Latin. I also examined Canterbury Tales, and found nothing significant.

Furthermore, I am beginning to agree with Dan V that "Manuscript Found (and Lost)" [if it ever existed LOL] was not about lost Hebrew tribes. That was one of the changes that Smith & Co. made to their massive revision.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

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_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Roger wrote:What is your baseline?


I do not have one. That is something that you must develop to show that your parallels are significant.

Glenn wrote:Unless Solomon went ungrammatical in the alleged second manuscript, the grammar problems in the Book of Mormon would seem to legislate against any substantial direct contribution, which would disagree with many of the witnesses who said that the historical parts were the same without alteration, even parts verbatim.


Roger wrote:In fact the situation is precisely the opposite. Sections for which S/R predicts an underlying Spalding text have a much lower occurrence of grammatical errors. The lowest occurrence falls in sections plagiarized from the KJVB--as we would expect.


Based upon what science does the S/R theory predict an underlying Spalding text?

Based upon statements such as this one from John Miller, it would seem that the only text that is not Solomon's is the religious material.
John Miller wrote: I have recently examined the Book of Mormon, and find in it the writings of Solomon Spalding, from beginning to end, but mixed up with scripture and other religious matter, which I did not meet with in the "Manuscript Found." Many of the passages in the Mormon Book are verbatim from Spalding, and others in part.


Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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