Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

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_Will Schryver
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _Will Schryver »

the narrator wrote:
Droopy wrote:"Absolute" in what sense?


In the divine, unchanging sense repeatedly taught by Church leaders. You read my Element piece, you know what I am talking about.

Forgive me for popping in unannounced, and not having read the entire thread, or even a fraction of it.

As a result, I'm not even certain what posture vis-a-vis "LDS doctrine" is being assumed by each interlocutor.

With that preface, permit to inquire as to how you reconcile or harmonize (assuming you do) the apparent objectives of "correlation" with the following principle:

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said that thou shalt not kill, -- at another time he said thou shalt utterly destroy. This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted -- by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.


I have to take my leave for now, but I'll come back later and check for a reply, if you are inclined to make one.
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _the narrator »

bcspace wrote:there is nothing in it that precludes a truly conservative solution.


Which is exactly why conservatives are up in arms over the Church's support of the compact. Contrary to your desire that "If an illegal wants to be here or work here all he and his family have to do is go back out and come in through the front door in sight of the host." The compact "oppose[s] policies that unnecessarily separate families, . . . [and] champion[s] policies that support families and improve the health, education and well-being of all Utah children."

by the way, did you notice the "Utah is best served by a free-market philosophy that maximizes individual freedom and opportunity."? The Church is reaffirming it's stance against socialism by supporting the compact.


The free-market and socialism are not diametrically opposed. But I really don't to get into that. This whole thread is already beginning to tire me.
You're absolutely vile and obnoxious paternalistic air of intellectual superiority towards anyone who takes issue with your clear misapprehension of core LDS doctrine must give one pause. - Droopy
_RockSlider
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _RockSlider »

the narrator wrote:It seems clear to me, however, that the Church uses the word "doctrine" in a manner that means far more than simply "official teachings of the Church." I addressed this problem of the term "doctrine" in a recent issue of Element. You can read a portion of it here: "The Challenges of Mormons Defining Mormon Doctrine for Mormons; or, Is It Mormon Doctrine that Mormon Doctrine Is True?"


Thanks narrator! I believe I'll buy this book as well.

Personally, I'm all about absolute truth, and that doctrine is power not teachings/current policies.
_Buffalo
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
I guess when you can't count on the Spirit to give consistent revelation, then you need something like the correlation department.


You can count on the Spirit. You just have to make sure you can count on the man. That is why it takes all 15 prophets and apostles to make doctrine and that based on the 1835 principle in D&C 107 that the FP and Qo12 are equal in authority. Tha manuals don't change that much or that often. If there was some egregious doctrinal error, they would have fixed it by now.


These men are pretty weak then. They couldn't even figure out what the nature of God was during their first century. They had to expunge the JoD from cannon to get rid of the discarded ideas about God. They don't seem to be any more prophetic than the post-apostolic Christian fathers were - a lot of bashing it out with different theories, followed by a period of consensus and stagnation.

Meanwhile, absolutely nothing about the process would be any different absent any spirit at all!
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_bcspace
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _bcspace »

These men are pretty weak then.


Freely admitted throughout all scripture. But certainly not weak in the way you think of it.

They couldn't even figure out what the nature of God was during their first century.


Sure they could.

They had to expunge the JoD from cannon to get rid of the discarded ideas about God.


The JoD was never canon or an official doctrinal work.

They don't seem to be any more prophetic than the post-apostolic Christian fathers were - a lot of bashing it out with different theories, followed by a period of consensus and stagnation.


People have opinions and God determines what is revealed. For some strange reason, critics of the Church are stuck with this notion that the prophets can divine anything about God 24/7.

Meanwhile, absolutely nothing about the process would be any different absent any spirit at all!


Doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell.
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _the narrator »

bcspace wrote:The JoD was never canon or an official doctrinal work.


Though not canon, the JofD was an official Church publication, approved and supported by the First Presidency, and had the same status as the Ensign or General Conference Reports have today. By our contemporary standards it was an authoritative source of Church doctrine--however, like past Church instruction manuals, magazines, and even scripture (such as the Lectures on Faith), it is no longer an authoritative source of contemporary LDS doctrine (teachings).
You're absolutely vile and obnoxious paternalistic air of intellectual superiority towards anyone who takes issue with your clear misapprehension of core LDS doctrine must give one pause. - Droopy
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _Droopy »

the narrator wrote:
Droopy wrote:"Absolute" in what sense?


In the divine, unchanging sense repeatedly taught by Church leaders. You read my Element piece, you know what I am talking about.



All divine, unchanging principles are understood as absolute. However, their application within the sphere of mortal affairs admits of degrees, levels, and stages of both comprehension and application. Absolute, eternal truths are, within a gospel context, capacitated or calibrated to the needs and/or level of ability to absorb or accept that truth.

Hence, the Law of Moses is an instance, or specified application of the gospel of Jesus Christ to a particular people under particular conditions. That law (the "schoolmaster to bring the children of Israel to Christ, as Paul described it) was fulfilled and discontinued during the ministry of Christ. The upshot of all this is that its discontinuance, and the stark differences in a number of areas we see between the doctrines and principles of the teachings of Jesus and of the restored gospel, do not mean that the Law of Moses was not a divine system who's laws and ordinances, as they came by revelation, were not true and true absolutely. They were, in other words, absolutely true within the sphere, bounds and conditions of their applicability and purpose.


The Law of Moses contains a body of doctrines, practices, and ordinances that are not only absent with regard to the modern Church, but which are in some cases sharply inconsistent with post Mosaic teachings, or appear to be so, from a surface film perspective in which application and purpose are ignored in favor of a concentration on the abstract principle of absoluteness alone.

We are not to love our friends and hate our enemies, but love both. We do not sacrifice animals as symbolic of the coming sacrifice of Christ, but sacrifice our sins and purge our hearts of them. Virtually the entire ritual religious life of Israel was understood to have been fulfilled in Christ, and its ordinances, principles and observances subsumed within the higher gospel Christ taught during his mortal ministry.

Plural marriage is another example in which we have two principles which, on their face, would appear to be in contradiction, but upon closer inspection are seen to be two instances or applications of the same eternal principles and laws which are manifest at different times among different peoples, or individuals, to various degrees and with unique conditions, boundaries and demarcation lines attached to their practice or application.

The WoW is yet another example. At first, it was not known, and use of psychoactive substances (tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine respectively) went on as before. When it was revealed, it came in stages or segments over time, all the way into the late 20th century. It was revealed, and continued to be revealed over time, as cultural conditions required its further unfolding and expansion. At first, it was only tobacco, alcohol, and "hot drinks." Later, this last was, not expanded, but clarified and refined through revelation to mean, precisely, coffee and tea, as well as taking anything in a very hot state.

During the last third of the 20th century, it became necessary to expand the spirit of the WoW such that its letter did not artificially choke its full meaning and import. The WoW is far deeper and more expansive than its few textual restrictions, and those restrictions are not exhaustive. However, their limits and application, based in the text of the scriptures alone, without continuing, contemporary revelation centered in divinely authorized, legal administrators of the gospel on earth, would inexorably become part of a closed canon of the traditional sort.

The point to be made here is that, although divine truths are absolute truths, their application to the mortal sphere must, more often than not, be partial, limited, and acquired by degrees and incremental steps. In any such process, as more knowledge is incrementally acquired, some aspects of that system will appear contradictory or inconsistent at some time within that process of knowledge acquisition and comprehension.

Beer may be accepted at one point and restricted at another, within a gospel context, without any conflict over what is "official" doctrine and what is GA opinion or prejudice, when one realizes that many of the absolute truths the gospel identifies to us may be understood as absolute in two senses. The first would be a truth such as the law of chastity, in which the boundaries of sexual conduct are clearly and rigorously demarcated and for which no exceptions to the general rule are understood to exist (save for, perhaps, some excruciatingly extreme or unusual circumstance that would be gist for thought experiments in an ethics class, but have only the most tangential relevance to real life).

The second would be absolute truths that come to us through a kind of gospel prism, refracted as higher or lower truths that, while all true, are true relative to our own condition and spiritual maturity and hence, our ability to receive and comprehend that truth.

For example, the Lord may accept the drinking of beer by his people in a period of early gospel development that he will not accept under conditions of greater spiritual maturity. If then, it is an eternal truth that humans should not drink beer, it may also be an eternal truth that, while a gospel dispensation is in its infancy, it is better to lead his people toward greater light and knowledge, and the greater disciplines of gospel living, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little, as opposed to thrusting a people into "the deep end of the pool" all at once.

Indeed, this is a well established concept within the Church. The point is that, while there are many absolute, eternal truths, not all of them have the same relevance or applicability for a specific people within a specific cultural context and under specific conditions attendant to the place in a gospel dispensation, or, we could say, a gospel developmental period, in which a people find themselves.

Alcohol generally is another case in point. The prohibitions of the WoW regarding it are hardly fully circumscribed by their relation to human health. The covenant promises associated with living the WoW in this area are primarily spiritual, far transcending physical health, though this is clearly an attendent benefit.

As a hypothetical case, we can imagine a society who's spiritual, cultural, and intellectual maturity are of a kind and depth such that alcohol could be (but not necessarily should be) used for social or ceremonial reasons, one might find the WoW modified to take that greater spiritual, cultural, and intellectual maturity into consideration.

In another culture, such as ours, for example, for whom alcohol, as well as other drugs, are perceived by a critical mass of that culture as a recreational drug and as primarily a means of intense perceptual and psychological catharsis and self administered chemical anesthesia, the use of which is closely associated with a plethora of the deep social pathologies that permeate our society, alcohol would be prohibited as a matter of absolute abstinence.

The tolerance of a culture, in other words, for alcohol, before its use reaches pathological levels, is much greater in one, and quite narrow in another.

In the same sense, organized, just warfare is not absolutely prohibited to the Lord's people, nor is personal self defense. However, a specific people (or person) within a specific context, such as the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, may take upon themselves, by covenant with the Lord, an absolute prohibition, based upon their own history and cultural background. Divine, eternal, absolute truth could encompass both states of affairs as instances of the application of core, overarching absolute truths to unique, human conditions, without any contradiction because both peace and human warfare have gospel application, and are salient features of the human condition which the gospel doesn't simply absolutely prohibit or absolutely enjoin, but mediates, defines, and conditions predicated upon overarching eternal, absolute laws and principles.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 03, 2011 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_Droopy
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _Droopy »

Though not canon, the JofD was an official Church publication, approved and supported by the First Presidency, and had the same status as the Ensign or General Conference Reports have today. By our contemporary standards it was an authoritative source of Church doctrine--however, like past Church instruction manuals, magazines, and even scripture (such as the Lectures on Faith), it is no longer an authoritative source of contemporary LDS doctrine (teachings).



What you have failed to mention here, Eric, is that, while the 19th century First Presidency endorsed the publication of the JoD, it never specifically endorsed its contents, which, given its size, is only to say that, given the number of prominent GAs who's words appear therein, there would have been little point in attempting a serious editing of the entire corpus.

There is certainly inspired teaching in the JoD. There is certainly opinion, speculation, and personal bias. The gospel was still developing doctrinally at that time, and hence, theological speculation was rife to a degree than that would be both improper and unnecessary now. The fragmentary, incoherent, and conceptually discontinuous teachings regarding the overlapping name titles and functions of various divine beings (The Father, Christ, and Adam) were a part of that doctrinal ferment.

The doctrinal accuracy or veracity of any specific statements, arguments, or assertions made in the JoD, simply because they appear within it, were never endorsed by the First Presidency of the time. Its publication was approved, and that, for all intents, is as far as you can go with it.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_jon
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _jon »

[quote="Droopy
What you have failed to mention here, Eric, is that, while the 19th century First Presidency endorsed the publication of the JoD, it never specifically endorsed its contents,
quote]

No, you're not serious?
They endorsed it's publication but not it's contents?
Wow, you also still believe the Book of Abraham don't you...
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Re: Bcspace probably right about what is LDS Doctrine

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
They couldn't even figure out what the nature of God was during their first century.


Sure they could.


God is Adam.

God and Jesus are the same guy.

God and Jesus are different guys.

The Father is a personage of spirit, the Son is a personage of tabernacle (flesh and bone).

Both are flesh and bone.

Holy Spirit is shared mind of Father and Son.

Holy Spirit is a separate person

And so forth.

Apparently the Holy Ghost is a stutterer.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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