The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

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_Buffalo
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
You didn't answer the question. But even if you're not exaggerating (and I think you are having had some experience with the GA's myself) how is any of this a problem?


It's only a problem if you believe, as Mormons do, that having a paid clergy is a bad thing. The scale of it is a problem if you believe in Jesus.

bcspace wrote:What is done with this income? How is it pay and not support?


What general authorities do with their lavish church income is their own affair, I'm sure.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_bcspace
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _bcspace »

You didn't answer the question. But even if you're not exaggerating (and I think you are having had some experience with the GA's myself) how is any of this a problem?

It's only a problem if you believe, as Mormons do, that having a paid clergy is a bad thing. The scale of it is a problem if you believe in Jesus.


You've not been able to make that case so far.

What is done with this income? How is it pay and not support?

What general authorities do with their lavish church income is their own affair, I'm sure.


Thanks for illustrating that you don't actually know if they receive an income at all much less a lavish one. Pease provide CFR, especially the one I asked for above.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 31, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Buffalo
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
Is staying at someone's house for a day or two the same as taking up permanent residence in a luxury condo paid for with widows' mites?


CFR


CFR for what?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_madeleine
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _madeleine »

bcspace wrote:Since we're diverging off topic, I see that everyone must have agreed with my explaination of why having an unpaid ministry is important by the way.


...I don't see the importance... :)
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_bcspace
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _bcspace »

Since we're diverging off topic, I see that everyone must have agreed with my explaination of why having an unpaid ministry is important by the way.

...I don't see the importance... :)


Just because YOU can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. by the way, I am in disagreement with certain FAIR statements on the need for it to show the truthfulness of the Church. But I do agree with the FAIR argument that even the living allowances for the prophet etc. do not qualify as a paid ministry for a variety of reasons.

Not to throw stones, because I'm fairly certain there is not an equivalent to an Apostolic Palace...BUT...I worked with a man for a while who is in the construction trade. He had a job under Zion's Securities, in Hawaii for a few months, where he was renovating the GA's beach house...so not Bermuda, but something very nice!


Many of them were successful professionals so yes, some are going to have these things. Obviously it cannot be said that they could never have been successful in regular society. Does that mean the Church paid for them or is supporting them or is somehow enabling them to be able to do so? Of course not.
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_moksha
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _moksha »

Those "Ministers" probably get a half million stipend, a bottomless credit card, limo service, big game preserve hunting, catered gourmet meals, and free trips on a luxury jet too, so quit belly aching about us spartan Mormons.
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_Morley
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _Morley »

I'm sure I missed it somewhere, but why is it important to have an unpaid clergy? I'm not sure I understand.
_madeleine
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _madeleine »


Just because YOU can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. by the way, I am in disagreement with certain FAIR statements on the need for it to show the truthfulness of the Church. But I do agree with the FAIR argument that even the living allowances for the prophet etc. do not qualify as a paid ministry for a variety of reasons.


*shrug* By far the priests I have met are living within a very small means, shared living spaces, etc. Those who have taken vows of poverty own nothing, anything that is earned is immediately given away.

Some priests also work as teachers, in universities and seminaries, and they are paid a fair wage.

The LDS blanket of unpaid clergy lacks in understanding of what our clergy do, and who they are.

At any rate, there are far more numerous unpaid ministries in Catholicism. The perennial temptation here is for people to build elite classes of parishioners, who essentially run the parish, and in the worst of cases, try to overrun the pastor (priest). So, unpaid clergy/ministers is not all roses.


Many of them were successful professionals so yes, some are going to have these things. Obviously it cannot be said that they could never have been successful in regular society. Does that mean the Church paid for them or is supporting them or is somehow enabling them to be able to do so? Of course not.


I guess I wasn't clear. The beach house is owned by the LDS Church and maintained by LDS resources.

There is a naïvété in here that is both endearing and a big red flag...a compulsory tithe is going to someone, somewhere, directly or indirectly.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_jon
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _jon »

bcspace wrote: But I do agree with the FAIR argument that even the living allowances for the prophet etc. do not qualify as a paid ministry for a variety of reasons.


I don't see how anyone can have a meaningful discussion with someone that doesn't see how a stipend, living allowance, a car and other travel costs constitutes being paid.

David O'Mckay 'worked' full time for the Church for virtually all his adult working life. He was a teacher (for the LDS education system for a number of years) prior to full time Church service.
He left an estate worth millions - must have been a miracle...
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_Buffalo
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Re: The Importance of Claiming an "Unpaid Clergy"

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
What you do with the money has nothing to with the fact you are paid.


Not according to the context of scripture. Jesus was a skilled artisan. Why would he have to have other people put him up if he could afford an inn?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQRBkv4di8
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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