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[_madeleine]

Ezias, prophecy is a gift of the Holy Spirit, given to some. There have been and still are prophets. There are also false prophets. The LDS idea of what a prophet is, is restrictive IMNHO.

I think at one time, I was open to the idea of all experiences being of equal value. But, after a few hard knocks and hard lessons of life knocked me on my butt, I don't think this any longer. There has to be guidelines, so then it determining, who's and why? Ways in which we can not tread the hard paths that have already been walked a million times before.

I have studied a lot of beliefs, and practiced a few from one extent to another, but none of them spoke to me as Jesus Christ has done. It is an undeniable experience, an encounter that wounded me, deeply....what a mentor calls, "wounded by beauty".

My spiritual journey has had great value, including Mormonism, but I was finally led Home and I often wonder why it took nearly half a century to get me there. But then a friend reminded me just today, God meets us where we are at.

Peace.

[Anonymous]

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[_madeleine]

More detail please (if you don't mind).

No gory details of my life here. But, suffice it to say, I followed a path for a long time, many decades, that led to *nothing*. This is the trap of "all things are equal".

How does this differ from other spiritual experiences, and how can you tell it is the "final say" on reality? I've had all kinds of experiences, I've seen the beginning and the end of time, yet the unfathomable abyss of God's mystery is still unfathomable, so I leave it at that. From my perspective I have only seen a part, and it would be megalomania to claim I understand "the truth". Unfortunately, most people seem to fall into the megalomania trap when they have enlightening experiences (Mormons, for example, that just KNOW with every fibre of their being that the church is true). How do you know you are not being too dogmatic (which I equate dogma with megalomania) when it comes to your assertions of what reality (truth) is?

Ezias, I don't view the world dogmatically. God meets us where we are. There is not a alternate reality where this truth does not exist.

I don't mean to be all vague and mysterious, I just do not believe as Mormons, and there is a lot of Mormon thought here in this thread, and on this forum. Even, if not especially by, those who say they are no longer LDS. Some of the time it is turned to nihilism. The way of thinking has to shift, and I don't know how to help in that. I leave it to God, who calls to all.

But, with that acknowledged, if you believe God is the author of your being, the structure of who you are as a human, then who you are cannot be artificially separated from the One Who made you. Our nature to seek out the divine, the seeking to fill the God-sized hole in our hearts, is there for a purpose. It is a gift.

There is but One Truth, Jesus Christ. The Mormon idea of a "true church" is artificial, in that, it makes separate from Christ what belongs to Him. All are unified under the Sacrifice of the Son of God, as Christ died for all.

The question then becomes, how to understand this and where does one find understanding? Or more to the point, the fullness of Truth? Those who have been wounded by false paths and dead ends, often pull into themselves, making a community of one. This is understandable, but, self-centered and really an spiritually unhealthy form of self-denial. (Self-denial in the form of fasting, not disillusionment.)

God calls us to Him as a community, which at the beginning was but two people, one man and one woman. Later, God covenanted with a people, saying "I will be your God and you will be My people." Finally, as St. Paul says, "in these last days God spoke to us through a Son"

And last, I think there is one thing I should clarify. When speaking of revelation, I understand they can fall under two types. Revelation, with a capital 'R', of the type that is relevant to our Salvation. And revelation, with lower-case 'r', of the type that is relevant to our lives, times and circumstances.

Jesus Christ is God's Word Revealed, fully, as the Son of God is the Word of God. As a person who understand mystery, I mean this in the sense that one can understand this Word not only as what is spoken, but Who He IS, and what He has done for not only all of humanity, but for the person calling themselves, Ezias.

He gave us a gift of the Holy Spirit, to guide us in all things. In this, God reveals His purpose to all hearts and nations. All other mystical experiences and personal revelations, are for this purpose, or, they are the purpose of another.

So when you hear a Christian say, Jesus is God's Final Revelation, it means, what more is there to say? What did Jesus leave out? What did the Father hold back? Jesus Christ is God's Word Revealed and there is no other Word. He is the Way.

This can become a very lengthy discussion, as the word used for "Word", is logos, and denotes many more ideas and truths than I've laid out here. Jesus Christ as our logos, the Word of God, then He is our Reason. Even philosophically, as St. Paul was a well-educated man, and knew very well logos as its meaning of "order and knowledge".

That is not to say, one should make of philosophy a religion, but it can be used to describe our mystical (human) experiences.

Peace.

[Anonymous]

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[_madeleine]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I think you have been given a grace that is beautiful.

Yes, I agree, the human experience is undeniable. You may find a book by the late Fr. Luigi Giussani interesting..."The Religious Sense".

Viewing all beliefs as relative, that is, one no better then other or one no worse, can mean that all have equal value. That is, that all mean *something*. Or, it can mean they all mean *nothing*. I think it is admirable that you see the something, without even a consideration of the nothing. For my life's experience, where I was a nihilist, I followed that path to it's ultimate end, which is *nothing*. Or for my own experience, what I named the doorway to hell. At the end of that path I opened that door, and there was nothing there...and I mean *nothing*.

I then became determined to find *something*, but cautiously, as my both my Mormon and atheist experiences taught me that I can fool myself. I prayed, an atheist's prayer, that if God existed, to lead me to Him. I set out on an experiment, to see if I could find faith. I was very careful about watching my own thoughts, and how I was perceiving experiences. But God put me on a fast track, and gave me experiences that are undeniable, and not generated from myself. Which, brought me to Him, and to Faith. Faith is not something I created, or have the capability to generate from myself. I wouldn't know how.

But anyway, yes, your experience of pain and suffering and what you view it to mean, there is a form of this teaching in Catholicism, and also, Buddhism...which is one of the religions I studied but never practiced.

The Catholic teaching is, God does not create our pain and suffering, but He does allow it. St. Paul, teaches that we should boast of our suffering. This is not out of pride, but out of an understanding of sharing in the suffering of Jesus Christ. Or, giving our pain and suffering to Him. Catholics say, "offer it up", which is shorthand for offer it up as a sacrifice for your sins. Give it to God, He will take it. It is a recognition that there is dignity in our human experience, including suffering. Which, is often antithetical to our culture, which wants to hide suffering and not experience it.

If you remember your parables, there is the parable of the blind man, who Jesus healed and the disciples asked, why was this man born blind? Jesus answered, so that the glory of God could me made manifest in the world. Jesus shows us the dignity of human life, which is inherent in who we are, and tightly tied to the One who Created this life.

The Logos....

St. John's Gospel begins:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

1 John begins:

What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of life--for the life was made visible; we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us--what we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

These are well-taught scriptural reference among all Christians, from St. John, which is many things, but among those many things, a theological explanation of Christianity.

Other than that, I'm not really sure what you are asking specifically about the Logos, the Word of God made flesh, and Who dwelt among us. What are you looking for?

So, back to what Christ brought to the world by His Suffering and Death. Where one man brought pain and death, one Man brought eternal life. This is a central teaching of Christianity. I don't see anything wrong with viewing this as bringing the world into balance, but that is scratching the surface. It is the greatest mystery of our Christian Faith. Beautiful, profound and full of unlimited Grace.

"Grace makes beauty, out of ugly things."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGBNa0L41Zc

God wounds us with Beauty, which is, my encounter with Jesus Christ.

Peace.

[Anonymous]

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[_madeleine]

Jesus is the Word of God, which is not something separate from God. No more than your words are separate from you. They come from you, relate your thoughts, feelings, experiences, etc.

God is infinite and eternal, and so is His Word. We don't become the Word of God, but we are united through Jesus with the Father. This unity exists now, in the Body of Christ, which is His Church.

Church, being more mystical for a Catholic than "a body of like-minded individual", or a building or organization.

Peace.

[Anonymous]

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[_madeleine]

Well, I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. I thought I was discussing mysticism but viewing what I wrote as a description of "Unity"...I obviously am coming across as abstract. Jesus Christ is not Someone Who I view as abstract. Or the mystical aspect of community, or more precise, Communion.

The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Euchartist being the center, source and summit of my Faith, and that of all Catholics (east and west). This is a physical and mystical union, a gift. Which preconfigures the life to come. So that is where I am coming from. Not an abstract ideology.

Pantheism, being more to me something that has no center, other than, oneself. Jesus never called us to center on ourselves, and like Mormonism, arose much later from a source other than the Apostolic faith. And like Mormonism, desregards entirely the Faith handed on...which is something I cannot understand. The new-age aspect of it holds no interest for me, in that, if I wanted to understand Jesus Christ according to the latest vision, I see no reason to leave Mormonism. Or why not SDA? Or any other number of people that claim to have "discovered" the hidden truth that time forgot.

We are not Saved by secret knowledge or united to God by it. We are Saved in and through a Person, Jesus Christ.

:)

Peace.

[Anonymous]

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