Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

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_Nightlion
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _Nightlion »

ErikJohnson wrote:What do participants here think is Mormonism’s most significant departure from the Christian Faith?

And when I say Christian Faith, I mean those doctrines common to that Faith, Protestant or Catholic (e.g., the Trinity, the Incarnation, the hypostatic union, salvation by grace), not secondary matters disputed between Christian sects (e.g., infant vs. believer baptism, infused vs. imputed righteousness, the five points of Calvinism). For those unclear on the distinction I’m making and in need of a refresher, C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity is a good resource for understanding the common elements of the Christian Faith.

A couple years ago, I probably would have identified the LDS denial of the Trinity as their most significant heresy. But on further consideration, I think their denial of God’s Creation Ex Nihilo is even more profound. That denial effectively blurs the distinction between God and Creation. It opens the door to the radical LDS claim (by Christian standards) that Jesus is not God Eternal, but rather came into being as an “organized intelligence.” Indeed Mormonism, with its apparently endless chain of men & women becoming gods spawning men & women becoming gods, together with its claim that physical matter has always existed denies the very existence of an ultimate, maximally powerful God— a view closer to Atheism than Christianity. LDS gods are creature-gods, meaning they are created beings (in the LDS sense of being organized from pre-existent matter/intelligences) much like you and me as the LDS Church teaches. And so worship of LDS gods is idolatry by definition (idolatry defined as worship of created things, as opposed to worship of the Creator God). The implications of denying Ex Nihilo are not small.

And next to that, disputing the nature of the Godhead or Trinity seems altogether inconsequential.

Thoughts on this? Agree/disagree? Is there a more significant heresy that I’m overlooking?

--Erik


In matters of LDS theology it has yet to be attempted to rationalize all its parts and make them agree. Well, that is not entirely true. I personally accomplished just that thirty years ago and was roundly dismissed out of hand without a due hearing. So it still has not been done acceptable.

Let me just state for you OP. Jesus Christ was not one of the Organized Intelligences. Indeed, he it was who spoke the will of the Father and commanded the Light of Truth to bring forth the several independent spheres of existence and hence, as the Book of Mormon testifies, he is also one with and fully The Very Eternal Father, The Eternal God, from all eternity to all eternity.

D&C 20: 17, 28
17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;
• • •
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.


The silly speculations of the unwashed defilers of holy things will never square with what is written. And there is enough to LDS mysteries of godliness to entice the old school to wonder. If they ever get a chance to hear about it that is.

Oh, and exaltation is only the continuation of the seeds both in the world and out of the world. It never can have the right or power to organize intelligence or create by the word of power.

Joseph Smith said Christ was on the same track as the Father. When he said we need to learn to become a god he was not putting us on the same track as the Eternal God. That makes reason stare. In scripture there is plainly delineated separate rounds for God and those who are exalted. Call me on it!
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_Milesius
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _Milesius »

bcspace wrote:
Which ECF quote do you think is incorrectly attributted? Here is a handy reference for your purusal:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

I've fully read most of these. Have you?


I read patristic sources as well as what scholars have written about them. To start with, Clementine literature is late and it is pseudepigraphal, which essentially knocks out two of the references on your* list. (Although, I allow for the possibility that Clementine literature might preserve some authentic Christian beliefs, I do not consider it credible on the whole and will only accept it as a supplemental, not a primary, witness in most if not all cases.)

*i.e., FAIR's
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
_Obiwan
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _Obiwan »

Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith


"Traditional" Christianity's rejection of who we actually are in relation to the Father, who we can be. The Purpose of Life.....

This was the main reason for the Restoration.
Satan's greatest accomplishment has been convincing man that we are not literal children of God, and can't be exactly as He is. Convincing man to deny who they actually are. How can a man be a thing, if he doesn't actually know who he is and can be? This is the greatest heresy of "traditional" Christianity.
_ErikJohnson
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _ErikJohnson »

Obiwan wrote:
Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Satan's greatest accomplishment has been convincing man that we are not literal children of God, and can't be exactly as He is.

Hey Obiwan--

The New Testament speaks frequently of "adoption"--the context being that believers are adopted into the family of God (e.g., Romans 8:15, Galations 4:5, Ephesians 1:5). So while it's certainly true we are all part of God's creation, and furthermore, that we are all image-bearers of God--I don't think you can conclude we are all "literal children of God." After all, how could someone "adopt" his/her own children?

And as for the latter part of your statement, you have it exactly backwards. Satan's argument--Genesis 3:5--was that Eve could be "like God." And he was lying, of course.

--Erik
_basilII
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _basilII »

bcspace wrote:
It opens the door to the radical LDS claim (by Christian standards) that Jesus is not God Eternal, but rather came into being as an “organized intelligence.”


The LDS claim is both.

Indeed Mormonism, with its apparently endless chain of men & women becoming gods spawning men & women becoming gods, together with its claim that physical matter has always existed denies the very existence of an ultimate, maximally powerful God— a view closer to Atheism than Christianity.


The early orthodox Christians viewed God as a material Being

bcspace,

We've been through this before. You are misrepresenting early catholic Christianity's beliefs on the nature of the one God:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16744

To me the most fundamental distinction between Mormonism and traditional Christianity is the doctrine that God is the source of all other existence/being: creation from nothing. Once you lose sight of that fundamental reality, all kinds of strange beliefs and doctrines can arise.
_basilII
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _basilII »

Here are a few more early quotes all from the second century A.D. These are not taken out of context and are representative of the early church fathers as a whole. They are called the 'church fathers' of orthodox Christianity for a reason.

Apology of Aristides (2nd century):
"I say, then, that God is not born, not made, an ever-abiding nature without beginning and without end, immortal, perfect, and incomprehensible. Now when I say that he is "perfect," this means that there is not in him any defect, and he is not in need of anything but all things are in need of him. And when I say that he is "without beginning," this means that everything which has beginning has also an end, and that which has an end may be brought to an end. He has no name, for everything which has a name is kindred to things created. Form he has none, nor yet any union of members; for whatsoever possesses these is kindred to things fashioned. He is neither male nor female. The heavens do not limit him, but the heavens and all things, visible and invisible, receive their bounds from him. "

Melito of Sardis (2nd century):
"Believe in Him who is in reality God, and to Him lay open thy mind, and to Him commit thy soul, and He is able to give thee immortal life for ever, for everything is possible to Him; and let all other things be esteemed by thee just as they are-images as images, and sculptures as sculptures; and let not that which is only made be put by thee in the place of Him who is not made, but let Him, the ever-living God, be constantly present to thy mind. For thy mind itself is His likeness: for it too is invisible and impalpable, and not to be represented by any form"

Athenagoras of Athens (2nd century):
"But to us, who distinguish God from matter, and teach that matter is one thing and God another, and that they are separated by a wide interval (for that the Deity is uncreated and eternal, to be beheld by the understanding and reason alone, while matter is created and perishable), is it not absurd to apply the name of atheism?"
_basilII
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _basilII »

A sad side effect of growing up Mormon is that when someone stops believing in Mormonism they often dismiss the God of traditional Christianity as being equally absurd and human like. Its continually astounds me to hear otherwise intelligent former Mormons go on about how the Christian God cannot exist since the idea of some sort of superpowerful old man in the sky makes no sense.
_Valorius
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _Valorius »

As Erik and Madeleine, I see the denial of a Creator unbound by time or space or matter, transcendent and dependent on no power but his own inherent power (in contrast to some mysterious "force" or "priesthood"), originator of All, not just of the next generation of one of countless co-lateral lineages: to be the single greatest heresy. Denying the Creator is equivalent in Judaic, Christian, and Islamic terms, to deny the existence of God himself.

I appreciate the quotes, Milesius and Basil||. Thanks.
madeleine wrote:A secular view, which denies God, or even a basic acknowledgement of how humans respond.

It is like standing with a geologist while admiring the beauty of a mountain range. Only to have the geologist break in to describe the process of erosion and types of rocks and how they are formed...and really, the mountain is just a pile of rock. Yes, very informative and factual, thanks.
ErikJohnson wrote:What do participants here think is Mormonism’s most significant departure from the Christian Faith?

And when I say Christian Faith, I mean those doctrines common to that Faith, Protestant or Catholic (e.g., the Trinity, the Incarnation, the hypostatic union, salvation by grace), not secondary matters disputed between Christian sects (e.g., infant vs. believer baptism, infused vs. imputed righteousness, the five points of Calvinism). For those unclear on the distinction I’m making and in need of a refresher, C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity is a good resource for understanding the common elements of the Christian Faith.

A couple years ago, I probably would have identified the LDS denial of the Trinity as their most significant heresy. But on further consideration, I think their denial of God’s Creation Ex Nihilo is even more profound. That denial effectively blurs the distinction between God and Creation. It opens the door to the radical LDS claim (by Christian standards) that Jesus is not God Eternal, but rather came into being as an “organized intelligence.” Indeed Mormonism, with its apparently endless chain of men & women becoming gods spawning men & women becoming gods, together with its claim that physical matter has always existed denies the very existence of an ultimate, maximally powerful God— a view closer to Atheism than Christianity. LDS gods are creature-gods, meaning they are created beings (in the LDS sense of being organized from pre-existent matter/intelligences) much like you and me as the LDS Church teaches. And so worship of LDS gods is idolatry by definition (idolatry defined as worship of created things, as opposed to worship of the Creator God). The implications of denying Ex Nihilo are not small.

And next to that, disputing the nature of the Godhead or Trinity seems altogether inconsequential.

Thoughts on this? Agree/disagree? Is there a more significant heresy that I’m overlooking?

--Erik
_MCB
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _MCB »

The sum of it is that our God transcends all--God is beyond human understanding and description. The Mormon god is anthropomorphized to the point that men can become gods. The Mormon god is so limited as to not be our God.

I think this is best characterized by the Jewish trdition that the name of God is not to be uttered. The Mormon tradition is more like Zeus, with very human emotions.

The most important thing is that the Mormon god did not create the universe-- but only assembled the Earth from fragments of previously existing planets.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Most profound heresy against the Christian Faith

Post by _GlennThigpen »

MCB wrote:The sum of it is that our God transcends all--God is beyond human understanding and description. The Mormon god is anthropomorphized to the point that men can become gods. The Mormon god is so limited as to not be our God.

I think this is best characterized by the Jewish trdition that the name of God is not to be uttered. The Mormon tradition is more like Zeus, with very human emotions.

The most important thing is that the Mormon god did not create the universe-- but only assembled the Earth from fragments of previously existing planets.



MCB, the mainstream idea of God is something that evolved from the Biblical attributes due to the Hellenization of Christian thought in the first few centuries after Christ's death.

You also are not really up on LDS theology concerning the creation. We do not believe that God assembled the earth from fragments of preexisting planets. The exact mechanism has not been revealed. But we do not believe in ex nihlo creation, but that the matter of the universe has always existed and God created the universe, by what ever means, big bang maybe, to form the the suns and the planets around which they rotate.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
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