Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

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_jon
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _jon »

harmony wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:Harmony, it's impossible for me to take the above as a serious question, unless it's simply designed to get me to summarize the book and the article for somebody who declines to read them himself.


I think the question was designed to ask your opinion, Daniel, not for you to summarize anything. Why do you think those articles in particular are helpful to this discussion? Is there something specific you wanted highlighted?


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_Buffalo
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _Buffalo »

Dr. Peterson seems to be avoiding defending the materials he posted, and instead only comes in to defend himself.
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_mikwut
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Themis,

Your first link is not helpful. It is just one long attack article, attcking an author. I really wish that this was not one of the main thrusts of apologetics.


This kind of thinking on the board that becomes a kool-aid everyone drinks is baffling to me. It is a book review that gives criticisms of George Smith's book. The criticisms include proper context of sources cited, proper interpretation of sources cited, misleading the audience with sources and prejudice, which all go clearly to credibility. That is an important and appropriate criticism of any historical work. It responds to claims the book makes like the suppression of history, Joseph as a womanizer, Fanny Alger, and many other obviously (Harmony??) relevant criticisms of polygamy practiced by the early church.

How you make a trite statement that it is simply an "attack" piece is beyond me as much as Simon gallivanting around the board claiming every criticism of the Mormon church is an 'attack'. The two sides don't agree fundamentally, obviously. Criticisms and critiques of the opposing position are not an attack they are engagement and dialogue in a manner conducive to legal practice and scientific debate and argument. You leave a naïve implication that it is an attack as if FARMS are just personally degrading someone. They are engaging with the evidence and argument for the proper conclusion to be drawn.

my best, mikwut
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I suggest starting a thread about Dr Peterson's travel schedule and attack pieces and hope that it degenerates into an actual discussion about Joseph Smith and Early Polygamy.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Mikwut is precisely right.

I've said before that I can understand people who say that the evidence marshaled by advocates of the Book of Mormon is insufficient, or unconvincing, but that I have no patience for people who claim that there is absolutely no evidence for the Book of Mormon whatever. Similarly, in this case, even though I wouldn't agree, I could understand someone saying that Greg Smith's tone was obnoxious. But to pretend that Greg Smith's article presents absolutely no evidence or argument, that it offers no substance at all? Ridiculous, and not worth a response. Such a position plainly bespeaks a lack of intellectual seriousness.

Buffalo wrote:Dr. Peterson seems to be avoiding defending the materials he posted, and instead only comes in to defend himself.

True, in a sense.

I have no intention of "defending" the book and the article to which I supplied links. They need no defense. And, if they aren't read, there's no point in discussing them. (I'm fairly sure that there's no real point in discussing them here in any case, since the reactions, above, of two who claimed to have read them were so transparently silly.)

A question was raised, in another thread, about Joseph Smith and early Mormon polygamy. I posted links to two relevant items, in case anybody was actually interested in the topic. Fair-minded readers will understand the arguments they make.

I'm not going to go through the book and the article, though, in order effectively to prepare a Cliff's Notes version for people here. I do that occasionally for my classes (e.g., with regard to al-Ghazali's Incoherence of the Philosophers) when a text is difficult and I think that the students need some navigational assistance. But this isn't a class, I'm not getting paid for posting here, I have no professional obligations to this thread or board, the texts in question aren't difficult, and, anyhow, I don't approve of students who try to use the Cliff's Notes edition in lieu of reading the actual book itself.

On this thread, Joey entered with his trademark juvenile mockery of my connection with Provo, which had nothing to do with the thread's topic. I responded by mentioning some facts clearly showing that his attempt to portray me as a provincial hick unfamiliar with the world beyond Provo is spectacularly mistargeted. (I grew up in California; don't even live in Provo; am routinely on the road across the United States, in Europe, in the Middle East, and beyond; and am professionally involved in an academic field that is inherently and inescapably international.) Fair-minded readers will instantly understand the point.

As to Joey's effort to denigrate academia . . . well, I suppose that really merits no response, either. We have Joey's assurance that he's a very successful man of enormous significance in national and international finance who lives the good life that small town losers like myself can only dream of, but, frankly, I find it difficult to believe. And I wouldn't care much, either.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Simon Belmont

Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _Simon Belmont »

DrW wrote:Some folks travel extensively as a part of their chosen lifestyle. For some this involves taking risks to develop technologies, start companies, create jobs, and benefit society in a real and tangible way.


Because education and research which adds to the knowledge and understanding of the human race in no way betters society, right DrW?

Some folks travel simply to defend the indefensible.


For 180 years, critics and anti-Mormons have attempted to destroy The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Where [u]many [/u]have tried, none have succeeded. It has all been for naught.

I would not call that indefensible, or, as you like to say "demonstrably false."

Their activities produce nothing of real value to society, but are aimed at the perpetuation of an organization that leaches off of the labor of those unlucky enough to be born into it or believe the misrepresentations of its unpaid representatives.


Service is important to us. It isn't all about money, DrW.
_madeleine
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _madeleine »

Ummm, I can't imagine a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic is traveling extensively for the sole purpose of defending religious belief. Perhaps where one travels is relevant to his field? Though Jackson Hole....that is the "one thing is not like the others". lol. I hope it was a vacation.
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_bcspace
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _bcspace »

Yet he doesn't teach against multiple instances of marriage does he?

Yes, He does.


Where? He himself authorized plural marriages. 2 Samuel 12:7-8 for example.
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

madeleine wrote:Ummm, I can't imagine a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic is traveling extensively for the sole purpose of defending religious belief. Perhaps where one travels is relevant to his field?

Quite so.

madeleine wrote:Though Jackson Hole....that is the "one thing is not like the others". lol. I hope it was a vacation.

It wasn't. I was addressing a small group on the subject of Islam.

But I did have some fun. (Sorry, Joey.)
_mikwut
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Re: Two Items on Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Polygamy

Post by _mikwut »

Dr Petersen,

Are you speaking when you pass through Denver? I would certainly be interested in attending if that is the case as I hail from the mile high air.

regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
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