.

[_madeleine]

Ezias, Jesus is God. I don't know if thinking on that one for a while will sink in the profound truth of God's Word Revealed. But, it is something I believe very strongly. Jesus is not someone who was misunderstood and then later misconstrued. There is no basis for this belief, or any hint of it, in 2000 years of history following Christ. It is conjecture only.

There are Catholic theologians who have written on the idea that heaven is a state and not a place. Hell also, being a state that's most clearest description being Who it lacks: the presence of God. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is described in this way as well, not so much a place, but a state of purification. So I understand where you are coming from.

The only thing you have done different from myself is make yourself god, and separate yourself from Him. There is no need to reject God. God calls all to Him.

We are saved from the deprivation that entered the world through sin. For by one man sin entered the world, bringing death, and by one Man, all live.

Peace.

[_Simon Belmont]

It is not mysticism that makes gnosticism heretical. It is the doctrine of "salvation by knowledge".

You might find these two articles to be of interest:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663b.htm

That's right.

Why was Gnosticism considered heretical while other religious philosophies were simply just "philosophies" and not necessarily heretical?

Well, it has to do with the basic beliefs of Gnostic Christians, namely the redeemer Jesus Christ. Other religious philosophies did not necessarily hold to that Christian cornerstone viewpoint, and thus were not heresy (unorthodox).

But gnosis doesn't just mean knowledge as we think of it today, it means knowledge of the esoteric; it means knowledge of how things really are, rather than just their appearance or the input we get with our five senses. Gnosis refers to a thing's essence.

It is a very interesting philosophy to study, to say the least. I recommend The Gnostic Heresies of the First and Second Centuries, by Henry Longueville Mansel.

[_madeleine]

It is not mysticism that makes gnosticism heretical. It is the doctrine of "salvation by knowledge".

You might find these two articles to be of interest:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663b.htm

That's right.

Why was Gnosticism considered heretical while other religious philosophies were simply just "philosophies" and not necessarily heretical?

Well, it has to do with the basic beliefs of Gnostic Christians, namely the redeemer Jesus Christ. Other religious philosophies did not necessarily hold to that Christian cornerstone viewpoint, and thus were not heresy (unorthodox).

Gnosticism denied the divinity of Jesus Christ, a belief that is manifest in the posts of Ezias. Teaching that we are not save by the suffering and death of Jesus Christ, but by secret knowledge. It is a belief that arose and is not Apostolic in origin, that is why it is a heresy. Heresy being defined in Catholicism as a teaching that is a corruption of dogma, or more precisely, a corruption of the faith handed on.

You'd have to clarify what other Christian sects you are referring to.

But gnosis doesn't just mean knowledge as we think of it today, it means knowledge of the esoteric; it means knowledge of how things really are, rather than just their appearance or the input we get with our five senses. Gnosis refers to a thing's essence.

It is a very interesting philosophy to study, to say the least. I recommend The Gnostic Heresies of the First and Second Centuries, by Henry Longueville Mansel.

Yes, I understand this. Gnosticism manifested itself (and still does) in many forms and fashions, but the common denominator is that salvation is by quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe. Gnostics being people who know. This knowledge making the people who know to be more elite than the people who don't know.

Other than that, the beliefs, dogmas, doctrines and practices are wide and not uniform.

[_Simon Belmont]

Yes, I understand this. Gnosticism manifested itself (and still does) in many forms and fashions,

Do you know of any current faithgroups that identify with Gnosticism? I can't think of any -- perhaps Summum?

[_madeleine]

Mormonism...its Christology, secret rites, dualism, privileged revelations and having a fascination with gnostic writings, such as the Nag Hammadi. Sometimes viewing them as indicative of a "lost" Christian orthodoxy. (But Mormonism is all over the map with this.) Joseph Smith himself was very gnostic...ceremonial magic, scrying stones, use of natural peaks (such as solstices), seeking encounters with spirits, dualism, freemasonry. These were all incorporated into his life.

Ezias is not the first to recognize this. I've met online one man who was very much into magic and alchemy, and he recognized very clearly Mormons roots in the occult, and called himself an active Mormon.

Zoroastrianism...probably the oldest.

Freemasonry.

Some beliefs described as "new age" have gnostic characteristics.

[_Simon Belmont]

Mormonism...its Christology, secret rites, dualism, privileged revelations and having a fascination with gnostic writings, such as the Nag Hammadi.

I don't think that's fair, since Catholicism is very ritualistic, even having some secret rituals and rites. It also has a fascination with Gnostic writings, if you consider Maccabees a Gnostic text. If I am not mistaken Maccabees is incorporated into the official Catholic Bible.

Zoroastrianism...probably the oldest.

Interesting. I don't know much about Zoroastrianism (but perhaps Dr. Peterson will participate in this thread).

Freemasonry.

Disagree, since it's not a religion.

Some beliefs described as "new age" have gnostic characteristics.

How about Jedi? ;)

[_madeleine]

I don't think that's fair, since Catholicism is very ritualistic, even having some secret rituals and rites. It also has a fascination with Gnostic writings, if you consider Maccabees a Gnostic text. If I am not mistaken Maccabees is incorporated into the official Catholic Bible.

We don't have secret rituals, at one time they were held secretly out of fear of death, and, "putting pearls before swine", criticism of cannibalism and the like, but none are gnostic in nature. For example, a LDS temple marriage seal is requirement for celestial glory, which cannot be achieved singularly. This is dualism. Catholic rites are monism, always. Dualism being another declared heresy.

Mormons have a sense of "secret knowledge"...always looking for it. Catholics, and all Christians, understand Jesus Christ as God's Perfect Revelation. The Word of God Revealed. There is no secret knowledge in this. Be a disciple of Jesus Christ, and that is all you need.

I don't know what isn't fair. It isn't a judgement of Mormonism as good or bad, it just is. Anytime a LDS individual begins to explain many aspects of Mormonism, there is an immediate recognition that there are gnostic elements. "Sounds gnostic." is a common reaction to hearing Mormon teaching, among Catholics.

Maccabees isn't gnostic. It is deuterocanoncial (the second canon), what Protestants call apocryphal.

Disagree, since it's not a religion.

Thought you said philosophies or religions...there are more philosophies.

[_Simon Belmont]

We don't have secret rituals,

The Papal Conclave is pretty secret.

"putting pearls before swine", criticism of cannibalism and the like, but none are gnostic in nature.

Exactly like our "too sacred to be out in the open" sentiments. Our ordinances are not secret, they are sacred.

For example, a LDS temple marriage seal is requirement for celestial glory, which cannot be achieved singularly. This is dualism. Catholic rites are monism, always. Dualism being another declared heresy.

Meaning, what? That the individual can reside in heaven by her or his own doings, not needing anyone else?

Mormons have a sense of "secret knowledge"...always looking for it. Catholics, and all Christians, understand Jesus Christ as God's Perfect Revelation. The Word of God Revealed. There is no secret knowledge in this.

It isn't secret, though. It just isn't revealed yet. We believe that God still speaks.

Be a disciple of Jesus Christ, and that is all you need.

Until that disciple murders someone.

"Sounds gnostic." is a common reaction to hearing Mormon teaching, among Catholics.

Okay, I can see how it "sounds Gnostic." But my opinion is that it doesn't fit the definition.

And what about Jedi?

Yoda said:

For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

Sounds Gnostic, huh?

[_madeleine]

The Papal Conclave is pretty secret.

There are no secret rituals in a Papal Conclave, they aren't even in the category of "too sacred for anyone to see".

Exactly like our "too sacred to be out in the open" sentiments. Our ordinances are not secret, they are sacred.

They still have a secret aspect to them, and they still have a gnostic nature to them. Secret knowledge is obtained.

Meaning, what? That the individual can reside in heaven by her or his own doings, not needing anyone else?

No Simon Belmont, a Christian works out their own Salvation in fear and trembling, just as St. Paul teaches. We need Jesus Christ. Who is the Creator of all things.

The Mormon belief in becoming gods, in a duality, man and woman, is dualism. The Mormon temple marriage ritual has this intention.

It isn't secret, though. It just isn't revealed yet. We believe that God still speaks.

"line up line, precept on precept"...this is very gnostic.

Until that disciple murders someone.

huh? Salvation is found in and through Jesus Christ, for all sinners, including murderers.

Okay, I can see how it "sounds Gnostic." But my opinion is that it doesn't fit the definition.

*shrug* It does.

And what about Jedi?

Yoda said:
For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

Sounds Gnostic, huh?[/quote]

Yes, The Force is gnostic.

Just as "eternal intelligences" and uncreated matter are.

[_Simon Belmont]

You know, madeleine, I've never thought about Mormonism as being at all related to Gnosticism.

But I definitely see your point. I don't think we are a Gnostic faith, but, now that you point it out, there are some Gnostic qualities to our faith.