Leonard Arrington Testimony

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_Blixa
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Blixa »

moksha wrote:
Blixa wrote:"Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"


Well, it's not like we are expecting Arrington to roll over in his grave or anything like that. My guess is that Leonard Arrington was a team player and would see Mormon Scholars Testify as the tunnel leading into the stadium.


More like a locker room, Mok...
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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:Wow, Simon, you've really outdone yourself this time. I guess you really don't realize how clueless you are?



Please explain to me how clueless I am.


Mainly because you don't seem to understand who Arrington is/was and what he represents.

Why is this such a huge issue for you? Arrington published some faith-based writings in some books, and Dr. Peterson quoted some of them on a faith-promoting website.


Rodney Meldrum, Bruce Porter, and Mike Quinn have published faith-based writings, too. Am I right in assuming that you have no clue as to why these people have been excluded from the site?

I don't see the issue. Honestly.


I know you don't see the issue, Simon. That's the problem. You just flat-out don't get it.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Simon Belmont

Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mainly because you don't seem to understand who Arrington is/was and what he represents.


Okay, granted. I don't claim to know much about Arrington.

Rodney Meldrum, Bruce Porter, and Mike Quinn have published faith-based writings, too. Am I right in assuming that you have no clue as to why these people have been excluded from the site?


I have somewhat of a clue as to why some are included and some are not. I can think of several reasons, off the top of my head: they might not be well-known enough to Dr. Peterson, they might no longer be members, they might not have sufficient education or knowledge to be considered a "scholar", they might have asked not to be included, they might have failed to ask to be included. MST is a work in progress (and progressing nicely, I might add). Not everyone who will ever be on there is now on there. Stay tuned!

I know you don't see the issue, Simon. That's the problem. You just flat-out don't get it.


I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, yes.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mainly because you don't seem to understand who Arrington is/was and what he represents.


Okay, granted. I don't claim to know much about Arrington.


What a shocker.


I know you don't see the issue, Simon. That's the problem. You just flat-out don't get it.


I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, yes.


The best thing to do is to withhold judgement until you understand the issue, Simon. Sadly, that's not what you did.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_The Nehor
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _The Nehor »

So Scratch you are not willing to compare this to the quotations you've lifted for your online dossiers?

Because it paints you in a hideous light perhaps?

Typical.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

The Nehor wrote:So Scratch you are not willing to compare this to the quotations you've lifted for your online dossiers?


What are you talking about? Do I have a "dossier" that tries to claim that one of the apologists is somehow supportive of my "cause"?

You're like Simon: you seem to completely misunderstand the issue here. (Do you at least know who Leonard Arrington was?)
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_DrW
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _DrW »

Simon Belmont wrote:The point is Scratch has exactly the same amount of information to support his position that Dr. Peterson does. The reason you take one side over the other is because of your dislike for Dr. Peterson.

Simon,

I thought that I made it very clear last week that I have no dislike for Dr. Peterson. I am confident that he is, in person, a fine individual. I do not agree with much (most) of what he says on this board, but that does not mean I dislike him personally. So, would you mind discontinuing your unwarranted speculation as to my motives, unless I state them?

Now, once again (try to pay attention because this can only be explained so many times): If we assume that you are right, and that Dr. Scratch has exactly the same amount of information to support his position as Dr. Peterson has to support his (which I doubt, by the way), would not a single objection by the deceased Trump all of the non-objections by the deceased?

For example:

Perhaps the deceased would not object because Dr. Peterson did not misquote him.
Perhaps the deceased would not object because the piece did not fail to make reference to his work.
Perhaps the deceased would not object for - name your reason -)

However,what if the decease would object for one or more of the reasons of the kind that Dr. Scratch pointed out, namely:
- he may well not wish to be remembered as a member of Dr. Peterson's "team" because he has a certain distain for poor apologetics,
- he was demonized to some extent by the Church General authorities, or
- his policies in terms of openness in Church history were reversed once he was removed from his post.

Given this hypothetical situation, would you still believe that it was ethical for Dr. Peterson to "testify" for the deceased just because he had "exactly the same" information as Dr. Scratch?

Does the content or meaning of that information make no difference?

Just because Dr. Peterson happens to know what Dr. Scratch knows (and chooses to ignore the implications) is he justified to speak for the deceased as he has done?

What of Dr. Scratch were to assume that the deceased was really a closet apostate based on information that he had and were to "put together" a testimony against the way that the deceased was treated by the Church after he was relieved of his position?

What if Dr. Scratch were to post these statements on an ex-mormon or post-mormon website?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Simon Belmont wrote:Okay, granted. I don't claim to know much about Arrington.

What a shocker.



Simon really isn't 40.

I'd venture to guess he is much younger.

A person who is age 40 and lived a life supposedly well versed in mo'pologetics would know who Arrington is.
New name: Boaz
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_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Dan, why the necro-testimonies?
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Doctor Scratch wrote:It's simple: there are a number of reasons why Arrington would have personally objected to being involved in a project headed up by Daniel C. Peterson.

Scratch has absolutely no factual basis for that claim.

My relationship with Leonard Arrington was completely amicable, as it has been with his former professional associates, some of whom are among my very dear friends.

Doctor Scratch wrote:Further, DCP went and got permission to post material from the other deceased testimony-bearers, and he didn't do that for Arrington.

I didn't do it for Henry Eyring, either. I simply quoted from published, printed material.

I invited Ann Madsen and Phyllis Nibley to suggest materials that I should use, because I know them well. But I would have been entirely within my rights to quote from published materials of my own choosing. There is no sin in quoting from published materials.

In the case of Davis Bitton, I proposed an entry to his widow, who is a good friend of mine and of my wife, and she approved it. But I could easily have chosen something from his published work, and would have been entirely ethical in doing so.

I see no ethical problem in quoting from publicly-available printed books.

Joey, World-Conquering Titan of Finance, wrote:gibber gibber gibber

Thanks for your contribution, Joey. I'm flattered that you would deign to comment.

Blixa wrote:I have to say putting together a postmortem "testimony" and posting it to that website strikes me, too, as more than a tad unethical.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

It's a quotation from a published book. The sentences remain in their original order, no words have been added, ellipses indicate omissions, nothing in Professor Arrington's attitude or intent has been misrepresented, and the quotation is accurate. He was a believer, and he published expressions of his testimony on more than a few occasions. I've simply quoted from one.

Blixa wrote:And considering that it is Leonard Arrington, rather an egregious act of presumption.

"Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"

If "decency" means "moral objection to accurately quoting from published books," no, I have none.

Which, I suppose, given your quotation, makes me the moral equivalent of Joe McCarthy, or something of that sort.

What perfectly absurd outrage.

Doctor Scratch wrote:Arrington was sort of the "Grandfather" of many of the revisionist LDS historians who were later demonized by both the General Authorities and by many of the apologists.

By which, essentially, you mean Mike Quinn.

But Professor Arrington was also the associate of such historians as Davis Bitton, James Allen, Thomas Alexander, Richard Lloyd Anderson, Richard Bushman, and Kenneth Godfrey, all of whom I know and five of whom I consider very good friends. Davis Bitton's posthumous testimony is up on the site, as are the testimonies submitted by James Allen, Richard Bushman, and Kenneth Godfrey. Thomas Alexander's and Richard Anderson's will go up in the none-too-distant future.

I haven't misrepresented Leonard Arrington in any way, not by so much as a hair's breadth. He was a believer, he shared his testimony on numerous occasions, and I've simply quoted verbatim from one of those published expressions of faith.

Period.

The huffing and puffing here by Scratch, Blixa, and DrW is nothing short of ludicrous.

Doctor Scratch wrote:I'm sure that DCP sees this on some level as a smart "chess move." He's claiming Arrington as a player for his "team," though for obvious reasons that's problematic.

If Scratch has any actual reason for suggesting that Dr. Arrington, despite his service in a stake presidency and as Church Historian, and despite his frequent public expressions of faith (including the one I've quoted), really wasn't a believing Latter-day Saint, I hope he'll share it.

DrW wrote:If Arrington might have objected for even one of the very plausible reasons that Dr. Scratch pointed out, did Dr. Peterson have the right go ahead a "put together a testimony" for him and then publish it on MST?

What did I do in "putting together" this testimony?

I quoted from a published book, with full reference given.

Quelle horreur!

Oh, the humanity!

There is absolutely no factual basis for Scratch's declaration that Professor Arrington would have objected to being associated with me. But even if he had, I would still have the right to quote from a published book.

DrW wrote:Was his action in good taste?

Of course it was in good taste. There's nothing in poor taste about quoting from a book.

DrW wrote:Was it appropriate?

Of course it was appropriate. There's nothing inappropriate about quoting from a book.

DrW wrote:Do such actions enhance the stature of MST?

I can't really see any way in which accurately quoting from a book should harm the stature of MST.

DrW wrote:What of Dr. Scratch were to assume that the deceased was really a closet apostate based on information that he had and were to "put together" a testimony against the way that the deceased was treated by the Church after he was relieved of his position?

This is a frivolous analogy, because I didn't invent a single word of Professor Arrington's entry. It is a direct, verbatim, accurate quotation from the autobiographical book that he published near the end of his life.

Unbelievable.

This is one of the weirdest displays of over-the-top and misplaced outrage that I have ever encountered, anywhere.

I expect such lunacy from Scratch, of course. On this occasion, though, I admit that I'm astonished that he's managed to recruit a pair of others to his silliness.
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