Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

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_Buffalo
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Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Buffalo »

I was perusing Darth J's blog when I made the startling discovery:

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From: http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/2000s/2001RBSt.htm
Darth's blog: blog.php?u=7958&b=2798

These Latin shorthand notes matched nearly sixty percent of the transcript's occasionally repeated "Caractors."


This only gives more credence to Darth J's earlier theory that the Nephites landed in ancient Rome.

This has, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on the idea the Nephites lived in the Americas, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt Doom under the continental plates.

But seriously, is there any sort of apologetic response to this? So far it seem that there isn't.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Hasa Diga Eebowai »

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_Chap
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Chap »

Responses are not exactly flooding in, are they, even though we are up here in Celestial were there can be no discourtesy or aggression?

Here is what I added to the thread on this subject in Terrestrial:

Chap wrote:
I have readthe Fair Wiki article on the Anthon transcript. It says nothing about the Detroit MS, nor about the close resemblance between the 'Caractors' and the Latin shorthand forms ('Tironian notes').

I have read the linked [tFarms Review article by John Gee, 'Some Notes on the Anthon Transcript'[/url]. That says nothing about the Detroit MS, nor about the close resemblance between the 'Caractors' and the Latin shorthand forms ('Tironian notes').

I have read the article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism entitled Anthon Transcript.. That says nothing about the Detroit MS, nor about the close resemblance between the 'Caractors' and the Latin shorthand forms ('Tironian notes').

I have read the article 'New Light: "Anthon Transcript" Writing Found?' published in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: Volume - 8, Issue - 1, Pages: 68-70, Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1999.. It says a lot about attempts to find resemblances between the 'Caractors' and scripts found in the Americas - but says nothing about the Detroit MS, nor about the close resemblance between the 'Caractors' and the Latin shorthand forms ('Tironian notes').

I have read the article 'The Anthon Transcripts and the Translation of the Book of Mormon: Studying It Out in the Mind of Joseph Smith. David E. Sloan, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: Volume - 5, Issue - 2, Pages: 57-81, Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1996'. That says nothing about the Detroit MS, nor about the close resemblance between the 'Caractors' and the Latin shorthand forms ('Tironian notes').

So far as I can see, no-one seriously disputes that the 'Caractors' MS is a copy of writing that Joseph Smith claimed to come from the Nephite plates. And yet not only do we have a close resemblance between 60% of those characters and Tironian shorthand, but we even (in the excellent and detailed oliverycowdery.com article) have cogent reasons to come to the following conclusion:

And what a perfect cipher the Detroit Manuscript offered Joseph! None of the contemporary newspaper accounts even hints that "the learned" ever ascertained what this alphabet which bore the closest resemblance to ancient Phoenician might be. The "Saxon" accounted for the minimal Irish translated by Grace, but all that is ever claimed regarding the "strange abbreviations" is that they were Phoenician-like (but not Phoenician) and that their presence actually hindered the translation of the Gaelic in the book. That and the fact that Dr. Mitchill was struck by their similarity to "signs and symbols" in the margins of an old Latin Bible. Why wouldn't Joseph assume he could use them as his "reformed Egyptian" characters with impunity? After all, the best and the brightest had failed to identify them. Let Martin Harris shop around for an opinion; the worst that could be expected was a judgment that they were similar to ancient Phoenician -- good enough for the likes of the gullible Harris. But if the brightest of the lot, Mitchill, had taken the bait, as has been pointed out, Joseph would have been "the theme and wonder of the land."

The second of the three Gazette articles "unearthed" by Dale Broadhurst confirms my deductions about the contents of the Detroit Manuscript. I submit that this confirmation also lends further credence to other theories proposed above. And while, like the gold plates, it has disappeared, unlike the Book of Mormon plates, the old Irish book was once put on public display for anyone to view, not hidden in a box for a select few to "heft." The fact that its ever having existed cannot be brought into question makes the Detroit Manuscript's evidence weightier than Joseph's "gold."

Again, I would charge (now with bolstered conviction) that the myriad of connecting evidence demands the verdict that Detroit's "Ancient Manuscript" is the obvious and logical source of the story Joseph Smith, Jr. eventually refined regarding the Book of Mormon's "coming forth," and of the "signs and symbols" on the "Anthon transcript" purposefully misidentified as "reformed Egyptian."


Has there really been no attempt at an effective apologetic response to this? It certainly seems, prima facie, to be a massive hole beneath the waterline for the Book of Mormon - potentially a far more damaging event for Joseph Smith's credibility than the business of the Book of Abraham, which is goodness knows bad enough.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _ELYSAB »

There is a language that became extinct when LATIN language was created and IMPOSED as result of a POLITICAL DECISION by the rising ROME power that was to become ROME EMPIRE.

Sabellicus language was widely spread over ITALY (ITA + LIAh peninsula), inhabited by a people that had come from GREECE and that was speaking yet some of Phoenician language and writing in Phoenician characters even coming from inhabit Greece... Who was such people? In a collective way they were the SABELLICUS. They arrived mainly through Adriatic Sea/coast (middle to north) and maybe also walking through Venice region.

For sure some "old Latin precursor language" existed, in parallel with other ancestor languages, used by such Sabellicus languages (as Greek and Phoenician, what was to become German). But Sabellich was made extinct by political decision, by 5th century BC, by ROME, to exterminate the Sabellicus language showing evidence of link with Phoenician language, that was the proof that Romans and Italians had been slaves (Joel 3:6) of them and of Greeks.

Thus Sabellicus language and thus the Nephitic language (just a branch, of it, by the year of some 600 BC) was made extinct, erase, replaced by the classic LATIN language, created as a "branch language" of classic Greek language.

And all the true past history was replaced by fables and even some tells about some of the true history. As the one that tells the SABELLIS=SABINES (inhabitants of ITA-LIAh) were living as slaves in Greece and run away from it. They stole sailships with few women Sabelli and came to settle Italy and Rome town. Arriving there they "noticed" they had few women. They wanted to return and get more. But the women in sailship refused the idea and threatened to set fire on sailships. They told it was so silly idea, because it was plenty of beautiful women around. It was just the work of capturing them. Thus they made a party and made the "rapt of Sabines party": one of many tales for the foundation of Rome that replaced true history that they destroyed with all Sabelli's past, including language.

For knowing about the true CHARACTERS used by the NEPHITES from the time they departed from ITA-LIAh peninsula, from nearby Rome, have a look to what was the TRUE CHARACTERS they wrote on TOMBS of some 500-700 years BC, as in the region of ORVIETO, some 130 km far from ROME. The small village of NEP nearby it... There are plenty literature about TRUE characters written on stones and objects of such NEPH's period in Italy. You should examine a picture of one word that was engraved on stone of a tomb 500 BC and see it was written with same CARACTORS of Joseph Smith.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/54967-1921-book-of-mormon-geography-hearings/page__st__80
Message # 92

Old Italic alphabets
Origin
The Old Italic alphabets developed from the west Greek alphabet, which came to Italy via the Greek colonies on Sicily and along the west coast of Italy. The Etruscans adapted the Greek alphabet to write Etruscan sometime during the 6th century BC, or possibly earlier. Most of the other alphabets used in Italy are thought to have derived from the Etruscan alphabet.

"Ancient Latin"
The earliest known inscriptions in the Latin alphabet date from the 6th century BC. It was adapted from the Etruscan alphabet during the 7th century BC. The letters Y and Z were taken from the Greek alphabet to write Greek loan words. Other letters were added from time to time as the Latin alphabet was adapted for other languages.

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Here in the character "A" we can see so strange type of "A" that are so frequently presented in the Kinderhook plates. Some also are shown in CARACTORS document, but are rare cases. They are quite like of very ancient Phoenician origin, never of Greek origin. They are the result of the slavery narrated in Joel 3:6, as the Greek used a well done and well shaped "A" character, not these barbarian and brute "A" from the Phoenicians.

One general site on the ETRUSCANS: http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/

Etruscan language --> HAVE A LOOK
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/language.html

GOLD PLATES would look something like this:

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The Greek alphabet has been in continuous use for the past 2,750 years or so since about 750 BC. It was developed from the Canaanite/Phoenician alphabet and the order and names of the letters are derived from Phoenician.
At first, there were a number of different versions of the alphabet used in various different Greek cities. These local alphabets, known as epichoric, can be divided into three groups: green, blue and red. The blue group developed into the modern Greek alphabet, while the red group developed into the Etruscan alphabet, other alphabets of ancient Italy and eventually the Latin alphabet.

"A" character uses a "DOT" instead of the horizontal "bar" between two inclined lines. Very typical feature of the "A" characters provided in "CARACTORS" provided by Joseph Smith
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These strange shaped A also appears in Kinderhook plates:
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and in many other collections of Italic characters of 5 to 7 centuries BC, including for many other type of characters, even those quite strange ones. And that would appear to be very Phoenicians... But Sabellicus were not Greeks. And followed some Hebrew rules, even now they continue to follow. As on doubling characters.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/greek.htm GREEK
ANCIENT GREEK - may have a link with NEPHITIC
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http://www.omniglot.com/writing/phoenician.htm

Phoenician/Canaanite
Origins
The Phoenician alphabet developed from the Proto-Canaanite alphabet, during the 15th century BC. Before then the Phoenicians wrote with a cuneiform script. The earliest known inscriptions in the Phoenician alphabet come from Byblos and date back to 1000 BC.
The Phoenician alphabet was perhaps the first alphabetic script to be widely-used - the Phoenicians traded around the Mediterraean and beyond, and set up cities and colonies in parts of southern Europe and North Africa - and the origins of most alphabetic writing systems can be traced back to the Phoenician alphabet, including Greek, Etruscan, Latin, Arabic and Hebrew, as well as the scripts of India and East Asia.
PHOENICIAN ALPHABET
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FIRST REFORMED EGYPTIAN LANGUAGE - CHARACTERS:
Proto-Sinaitic / Proto-Canaanite

The Proto-Sinaitic script was the first alphabetic writing system and developed sometime between about 1900 and 1700 BC. People speaking a Semitic language and living in Egypt and Sinai adapted the Egyptian hieroglyphic or hieratic scripts to write their language using the acrophonic principle. This involved choosing about 30 glyphs, translating their Egyptian names into the Semitic language, and using the initial sounds of those names to represent the sounds of their language.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/protosinaitc.htm

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_DrW
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _DrW »

Chap,

Your "hole below the waterline" analogy regarding the Tironian notes that Joseph Smith used for his "Reformed Egyptian" made me laugh.

I once saw an unsinkable yacht at a boat show down in Miami that had essentially been cut in half and was still afloat and moving around the harbor. This remarkable craft was so constructed that one could punch as many holes below the waterline as one wished and the thing would not sink. It would simply settle in the water.

You couldn't really go anywhere in it and it was flooded and useless below decks, but if you stayed on board after a hull breach, you might eventually be rescued.

The thought ocurred to me that Mormonism is a lot like that (Etap) yacht. People have constructed it so that, although fatally breached and otherwise useless, it simply will not sink.

__________________
ETA: Just realized that the "unsinkable yacht" could be to be used as the raw material for another faith promoting analogy. (Wouldn't be surprised, actually.)
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Hasa Diga Eebowai »

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_Chap
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Chap »

DrW wrote:Chap,

Your "hole below the waterline" analogy regarding the Tironian notes that Joseph Smith used for his "Reformed Egyptian" made me laugh.

I once saw an unsinkable yacht at a boat show down in Miami that had essentially been cut in half and was still afloat and moving around the harbor. This remarkable craft was so constructed that one could punch as many holes below the waterline as one wished and the thing would not sink. It would simply settle in the water.

You couldn't really go anywhere in it and it was flooded and useless below decks, but if you stayed on board after a hull breach, you might eventually be rescued.

The thought ocurred to me that Mormonism is a lot like that (Etap) yacht. People have constructed it so that, although fatally breached and otherwise useless, it simply will not sink.

__________________
ETA: Just realized that the "unsinkable yacht" could be to be used as the raw material for another faith promoting analogy. (Wouldn't be surprised, avtually.)


Hmm. I am glad you liked that figure of speech, which in my case may come from an addiction to the novels of Patrick O'Brian. But your analogy of Mormonism with the unsinkable yacht is striking. It reminds me of this city crest:

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Of course the Parisian ship is not actually waterlogged. I don't think the CoJCoLDS has ever had a coat of arms. If it had, what would it be?

Oh of course, we are in Celestial and waiting politely for some indication of an apologetic response to the OP. But anything to pass the time ...
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _ELYSAB »

You should have in mind that SABELLICUS language came to ITALY by a people that was not GREEK but that came from GREECE. And their language had so many PHOENICIAN aspects and influence and characters that were not present or alive in Greece. They came DIRECTLY from PHOENICIA to the SABELLICUS without becoming Greek... You should remember Joel 3:6 from Bible. Maybe some remember little of Bible: some Mormons reason too much on Mormon Book and forget Bible literature, mainly those related to "minor" prophets like Joel. This is why they don't understand some Characters that are present in CARACTORS.

You should have in mind some old Italic characters that are quite linked to the CARACTERS document, because of the AGE of moist of them and because of their link with ETRUSCAN (not what is available in classic English sites) sites, for the time they were forced to assimilate into Latin

Image

http://members.fortunecity.com/mpdutra/Italia/imagens/alfa_osco.gif CLICK OVER THIS PREVIOUS URL to see image.

Look at the "STRANGE" V. Just above it has a DOT! The same STRANGE character is also found in the list of CARACTORS: in English

Look also at the "STRANGE" character "A" with a DOT over it. The same STRANGE character is also found on the "A" in the other yellow list above, for so many dialects, at the top of right column. It is reproduced many times on the list of CARACTERS... What do you thinK? They are from the 600 B.C. in CARACTERS list and in OSCO list. OSCO is for those who understand GERMAN LANGUAGE, not ENGLISH...

Thus that such CHARACTERS are more or less from the time when Nephites departed to IRELAND and to USA/CANADA. They departed from ITALIA = ITALY (ITA + LIAh means: ITA + JACOB = ITA + ISRAEL's = land for the DESCENDENTS OF ISRAEL, quite like one hidden kindgom for the ISRAELITES, quite like North America, Nephites Kingdom also was ; quite like the Roman Empire of North America...).

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Look at the North of Italy (ITA LIAH), where it is written CELTICO (it is more or less the modern region of the huge town of MILAN). There the CELTS joined with the NEPHIs (according literature, somewhat century VIII BC) and moved to France and crossed the CHANNEL to conquer Great Britain, and some stopped in the Island ADIEW (DIEW), a SABELLICUS name, that many think is ROMAN or French. DIEU is in B.of Mormon and it is a GREEK NAME for a "god" (mytology). In Ireland some descendants are living in a RECTANGLE known as NEPHIN, which means the LIVING PLACE of the NEPHs, next to North Ireland land. Yet some Nephites words remain in use, mixed with English and Celt.

http://members.fortunecity.com/mpdutra/Italia/imagens/inscr_osco_CipoAbell_pte.jpg

Messages in NEPHITIC had this appearance of Cippus Abellanus.
The translation to Latim, was like this (no english translation...)
Maio Vestricio Mai Sir
ex anterpacto arbitro
------
http://members.fortunecity.com/mpdutra/Italia/imagens/tabela_bantina.gif

Other text from the ancient Osco, a language similar to the Nephitic language, from more or less the same time.

http://members.fortunecity.com/mpdutra/Italia/imagens/inscr_pedra_Sepino.gif

Object like this has been found into Indian Mounds in USA and generally they end in hands of rich Jews that collect them, in N.Y.
Translation to Latin of stone ov IV century BC:
Latin quis es? sum (k�r�) [cuia] baetis Adii Aedini

http://members.fortunecity.com/mpdutra/Italia/imagens/inscr_PuntaPenne.gif
iuve�s luvfre�s (a J�piter Liber)



The list of CARACTORS have been translated to modern CARACTORS by the last 10 years, even in Jewish sites and in Yahoo Groups and Geocities: since it became known in Rome that the Nephites and Book of Mormon were originated from Rome. Such information was then, 1998, immediately made available by letter and fax, to friends and LDS authorities of Brazil and USA (in vain). Even thou it became available for general use in WEB in 2004 and in LDS sites, as FAIR, since 2005.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/203de26a4656a150b8ce9c217717c557b7ee488d976059195a93203f77086fc56g.jpg
CLICK TO SEE ENLARGED.

Image
_Chap
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Chap »

OK - we shall mark up one possible apologetic response as being that the Nephites were originally from Italy. Noted.

Is there anything from circles more in favor at the Maxwell Institute, though?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _DrW »

ELYSAB wrote:You should have in mind some old Italic characters that are quite linked to the CARACTERS document, because of the AGE of moist of them and because of their link with ETRUSCAN (not what is available in classic English sites) sites, for the time they were forced to assimilate into Latin


ELYSAB wrote:Thus that such CHARACTERS are more or less from the time when Nephites departed to IRELAND and to USA/CANADA. They departed from ITALIA = ITALY (ITA + LIAh means: ITA + JACOB = ITA + ISRAEL's = land for the DESCENDENTS OF ISRAEL, quite like one hidden kindgom for the ISRAELITES, quite like North America, Nephites Kingdom also was ; quite like the Roman Empire of North America...).
Ireland land. Yet some Nephites words remain in use, mixed with English and Celt.

Other text from the ancient Osco, a language similar to the Nephitic language, from more or less the same time.


ELYSAB wrote:The list of CARACTORS have been translated to modern CARACTORS by the last 10 years, even in Jewish sites and in Yahoo Groups and Geocities: since it became known in Rome that the Nephites and Book of Mormon were originated from Rome. Such information was then, 1998, immediately made available by letter and fax, to friends and LDS authorities of Brazil and USA (in vain). Even thou it became available for general use in WEB in 2004 and in LDS sites, as FAIR, since 2005.

The MADB thread on this subject, wherein Dr. Peterson made his now nearly famous quotation about Mormonism not having proven its claims, has been expunged from the record. If I am not mistaken, however, someone on that thread (was it you) made reference to some of this. Another TBM, with the screen name of Not Hagoth 7, also claimed Nephites were found in Ireland on that thread.

Is it your contention that the Nephites left for the New World from the Italian Peninsula?

What specifically is the connection of the Nephites to Ireland in your view?

Was there a city named Nehom in the ancient Roman Empire between Jerusalem and Rome?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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