The problem with Moroni's challenge

[_Corpsegrinder]

So if there ever was a person who approached it not already believing and not already trusting the question first, and yet receives an answer that it is true, where are you left? Nowhere. Its probably best to assume those who receive and answer, or claim to, are just mixed up, then to try and paint it the way you have.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

Moroni's Challenge purports to be a way to be a way to determine the truth of "all things." If it is what it says what it is, then why do the Brethren have such a difficult time distinguishing truth from falsehood?

[_stemelbow]

Moroni's Challenge purports to be a way to be a way to determine the truth of "all things." If it is what it says what it is, then why do the Brethren have such a difficult time distinguishing truth from falsehood?

Because it ain't easy. Just because its possible doesn't mean its easy.

[_stemelbow]

I've never heard of that happening. But even if it did, the whole thing is problematic. Human beings are full of feelings all the time. Feelings can only reliably tell you about your own psyche. Feelings aren't a sensory organ to detect things outside yourself.

Sure feelings in and of themselves. But we aren't talking about that, at least I'm not.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Because it ain't easy. Just because its possible doesn't mean its easy.

Is that another way of saying the procedure is neither reliable nor consistent?

And exactly where in Moroni's Challenge does it discuss the degree of difficulty the procedure entails, or the considerable amounts of effort that may or may not be required?

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the aLamanites; and I would that they should know that more than bfour hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I aseal up bthese records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may aknow that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, baccording to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

[_Buffalo]

I've never heard of that happening. But even if it did, the whole thing is problematic. Human beings are full of feelings all the time. Feelings can only reliably tell you about your own psyche. Feelings aren't a sensory organ to detect things outside yourself.

Sure feelings in and of themselves. But we aren't talking about that, at least I'm not.

Of course we are. Unless you're hearing voices or getting angelic visitations or your typewriter is running by itself to type "The Church is True™, baby!" then we're talking about feelings. You may interpret them differently, but it's still something you're feeling.

[_subgenius]

Are you saying that you believe God will tell people that the Book of Mormon isn't true?

Nope

[_subgenius]

Yes. I think many of the contributors to Mormon Scholars Testify would--secretly--agree with you. That's why so few of them specifically mention Moroni's challenge in their testimonies. John Gee certainly doesn't. Dan doesn't, either.

wow! speculation and anecdotal evidence....you must be correct!
why would there be a need to specifically mention Moroni? Are you suggesting that a true testimony of the Book of Mormon is gained by means other than just simply reading it with the honest determination of knowing whether it is "true" or not?

[_jon]

Are you saying that you believe God will tell people that the Book of Mormon isn't true?

Nope

Care to enlighten me further on what you actually meant?

[_stemelbow]

Is that another way of saying the procedure is neither reliable nor consistent?

Perhaps not foolproof is the idea I was going with. Sure.

And exactly where in Moroni's Challenge does it discuss the degree of difficulty the procedure entails, or the considerable amounts of effort that may or may not be required?

Its implicity in the requirements.

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the aLamanites; and I would that they should know that more than bfour hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I aseal up bthese records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may aknow that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, baccording to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

[/quote]

[_subgenius]

I've never heard of that happening. But even if it did, the whole thing is problematic. Human beings are full of feelings all the time. Feelings can only reliably tell you about your own psyche. Feelings aren't a sensory organ to detect things outside yourself.

Balderdash!
Only Spock would utter such nonsense. "Feelings" worked quite well for Spider-Man. Are you so void of confidence and self-worth that you do not trust your physical existence? Or are you so arrogant and egotistical that if you can't "add it up" then it ain't real?
Your generic condemnation of cognitive and instinctual emotions is a blatant cry of intellectual dishonesty.
The irony of those who would claim that we are bound only by the rules and dictates of the physiological, yet when convenient, contradict those claims with a notion that something is "greater" than nature.....and that something is always "themselves".
amusing