What MISSING in HOT Book Mormon and is found in USA-CANADA?

[_ELYSAB]

Prophet Joseph Smith told and taught clearly that Book of Mormon was related to a people living in a climate that was not "HOT or too WARM" (tropical/equatorial" as typical of MESO-AMERICA and MEXICO. In fact the Prophet was very clear that any normal LDS, should avoid ingesting too much salt and should believe = TRUST that the NEPHITIC EMPIRE developed around a GEOGRAPHIC AREA that spread from CUMORAH HILL to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS.

As in front of CUMORAH HILL is CANADA, and is next to the EAST SEA (Ontario Lake), and the Prophet Joseph Smith mentioned Lake East as being linked to the CUMORAH HILL, and because EAST SEA is linked to CANADA and as in one natural border one ZARAHEMLA, it is natural that the GEOGRAPHY of NEPHITIC PEOPLE (in a broad sense including the Lamanites and other ites and the Jaredites) has to include the CANADIANS. Thus the Climate of Nephites has to be the climate of USA and CANADA, being more severe or less severe depending on the regions of USA and Canada...

Thus being moderated TEMPERATE to severe COLD WEATHER.

Also the Book of Mormon was not a book make to describe with precision all meteorological events. The same like of precision in recording meteorological events we notice in ancient books, like in Bible. In which only exceptional events, as great draughts, as recorded as result of a divine punishment (and similar events), were recorded in such manner. Without worry of recording meteorological events. As if it was naturally snowing or raining or it was hot or cold, etc. Thus if a warrior was going naked to war, probably it was because it was summer time. The Book of Mormon didn't say if it was Summer of Winter time: we are imposing that. In place very cold, there is a time for war. The Carthago general was defeated because tried to make war against Rome in the Mountains in the winter-time. Napoleon was defeated against Russia trying to make war in wintertime. Hitler was defeated against Russia trying to make war in wintertime: defeated by "winter enemy". Thus probably there were no battles in winter-time, with snow, between Nephites and Lamanites. They would remain at home. If it was peak of winter time, the warrior would be wearing good clothes under their armor, as did the wikings and other very northern warriors, for example.

[Guest]

We are to make comments on the FORUM tittled "TAKEN at FACE VALUE...
Is the Book of Mormon True,or must it be nuanced to make it so?


HERE WE ARE TO MAKE SOME CRITICISM/EVALUATION to such type of EVALUATION, considering what is being presented in the FORUM:

1921 Book of Mormon GEOGRAFPHY HEARINGS
With best personal regards, sincerely yours,
Posted by the one BANNED, few days ago. Without notice or warning. Not great friend of Meso-American/Mexico theory for Book of Mormon. Intellectual oppositors are "silenced" as did Catholic Medieval Inquisition.


A thread started by Craig Paxton and started with a question that is very much related to the Book of Mormon GEOGRAPHY and that was raised by FARMS creator:
Former head of the organizatin that evenutally became F.A.R.M.S., Thomas Stuart Ferguson, was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove The Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon.

In 1975 Ferguson prepared a 29-page paper in response to papers written by Mormon apologists John Sorenson and Garth Norman. It was entitled, "Written Symposium on Book-of-Mormon Geography: Response of Thomas S. Ferguson to the Norman & Sorenson Papers." In this response, Mr. Ferguson wrote: 'With all of these great efforts, it cannot be established factually that anyone, from Joseph Smith to the present day, has put his finger on a single point of terrain that was a Book-of-Mormon geographical place. And the hemisphere has been pretty well checked out by competent people. Thousands of sites have been excavated."

Ferguson pointed out in his paper that the text of the Book of Mormon makes it very clear that certain items should be found in archaeological excavations and that these items are not present in the sites proposed. He noted, for instance, that "Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon..." He concluded by saying: "I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong."

To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:

Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test

Plant-Life Test
The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants in regions proposed as Nephite-Lamanite country:

BARLEY ---> MAYBE WE HAVE SOME "CULTURAL PROBLEMS" WITH THE TRANSLATION FROM SABELLIAN (well before Latin) = NEPHITIC to ENGLISH LANGUAGE.
Mosiah 7:22 One half of our corn, and our barley

................................Acts in the Chapter 10: An angel ministers to CORNelius. 10:1 There was a certain man in Cesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band.
Look at the name of this SABELLIAN person, a son from ITA - LIAH, ITA = "descendent of" LIAH= JACOB's wife = ISRAEL's wife. Thus such centurion was an ISRAELITE or ISRAELITA in LATIN languages or in SABELLIAN language (which is prior to LATIN) or in NEPHITIC language which is the same as SABELLIAN language. ITA LIAH's centurionb is ITA ISRAEL's = ISRAELITA = ISRAELite.
Look at the personal name of such centurion. It is not his FIRST NAME, but it is his FAMILY NAME (and I am known by my surname SAVELLI, as NEPHI is the FAMILY name thus you have NEPHI 1st, NEPHI 2nd, NEPHI 3rd and the "I" is to mean you are of "male gender" or would be NEPHA if of "female gender"...)
Look again. CORNellius is CORN + eli + us, and it is NEPHITIC surname = SABELLIC surname. Thus you read it as Hebrew: from right to left, even if you are using a blend of Greek and Phoenician characters, but with Hebrew grammar. You read: ELI + CORN. Thus ELI = MY GOD (as Jesus made such exclamation at the death in crossing)
......... CORN is not necessarily WHEAT but can be the cereal grain CORN = MAIZE grains and flour as basic main INDIAN FOOD. That was to be discovered in AMERICA in Colombus' days. "CORN" was main "FOOD" in, Christ's days, in SABELLIAN = NEPHITIC's language mainly from grains like wheat. Corn could/can be all FOOD as from starchy looking appearance bread: probably from generic grains and mixtures. In America we could include cassava (manioc) and similar starchy tubercles for generating "bread". It is possible the translation for WHEAT in fact was the translation for the cereal grain CORN = MAIZE... just a cultural problem, as with SHAZER x correct CHASER.

FIGS
GRAPES
WHEAT x CORN (SEE ABOVE DISCUSSION)
Mosiah 9:9 With seed of corn, and of wheat (SEE THE DISTINCTION "of CORN" and "of WHEAT"). What "CORN"?
3 Ne. 18:18 To have you: that he may sift you as wheat
Evidence to support the existence of these forms of plant life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:
NOTICE: Book of Mormon GEOGRAPHY is not linked to MEXICO to GUATEMALA, but to N.Y. to DETROIT to CHICAGO... AFTER THE END OF NEPHITIC EMPIRE, the LAMANITES LIKE HUNS and MONGOLS INVADED MEXICO TO GUATEMALA KINGDOMS, bringuinging their riots and destruction.
Barley: None
Figs: None
Grapes: None
Wheat: None

This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.

WRONG PLACE! Based on WRONG CLUES. JOSEPH SMITH PROVIDED VERY CORRECT CLUES. BUT THEY "REASONED" HE WAS THE FALSE and ignorant PROPHET.

Animal-Life Test
The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following animals in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite-Lamanite country:

***
1 Ne. 18:25 The ox and the *** and the horse
ASSES
BULL
CALF
CALVES
CATTLE
COW
COWS
BUTTER
MILK
FATLING
FATLINGS
FIRSTLINGS
FLOCKS
His Flocks—
Our Flocks—
Their Flocks—
Flocks—
GOAT
GOATS
HERDS
HORSE
HORSES
OX
OXEN (MAYBE THE NAME GIVEN TO SOME WILD NATIVE ANIMAL? Thus a problem with translation?)
SHEEP
My Sheep—
Sheep—
SHEARER
Mosiah 15:6 As a sheep before the shearer is dumb
SOW (Swine)
3 Ne. 7:8 Or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire
SWINE - In SOUTH AMERICA THERE ARE WILD SWINES: are them "native"?. As our "dogs" GUARA=redish?
3 Ne. 14:6 Neither cast ye your pearls before swine
Ether 9:18 Cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of
ELEPHANTS
Ether 9:19 And there were elephants and cureloms
Ether 9:19 More especially the elephants, and cureloms
Evidence supporting the existence of these forms of animal life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:
***: None
Bull: None
Calf: None
Cattle: None
Cow: None
Goat: None
Horse: None
Ox: None
Sheep: None
Sow: None
Elephants: None (contemporary with Book of Mormon)

Evidence of the foregoing animals has not appeared in any form (OHIO STATE FINDINGS?)—ceramic representations, bone or skeletal remains, mural art, sculptured art, or any other form. However, in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson, evidence has been found in several forms of the presence in Book-of-Mormon times of other animals—deer, jaguars, dogs, turkeys, etc. The zero score presents a problem that will not go away with the ignoring of it. Non-LDS scholars of first magnitude—some who want to be our friends—think we have real trouble here. That evidence of the ancient existence of these animals is not elusive is found in the fact that proof of their existence in the ancient Old World is abundant. The absence of such evidence in the area proposed for our consideration in this symposium is distressing and significant, in my view.

Metallurgy Test
BELLOWS
BRASS
Plates of Brass—
Brass—
BREAST-PLATES --> found in OHIO, in many cases. Even in Gold and in Brass.
CHAINS
COPPER
GOLD
IRON
Rod of Iron—
Iron—
METALS ---> Region along the Hudson River (even in NY) was plenty of all type of metals, including of copper, iron, gold, etc. for minning and metal production.
MOULTEN
ORE
ORES
PLOW
PLOW-SHARES
STEEL
SILVER ONTARIO = ONTARIUM means ONT A R IUM = the place for minning SILVER ore (in the neck of ISTHMUS of NIAGARA)
SWORDS
Our Swords—
Their Swords—
By the Sword—
With the Sword—
His Sword—
By the Sword—
Swords—
HILT
HILTS
TOOL
TOOLS
ENGRAVE
ENGRAVED
ENGRAVEN
Engraven—
ENGRAVING
ENGRAVINGS


The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of some or all of the following scripts in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite country: Cuneiform (only script used in Tower of Babel times and land—oldest and first script in the world—only one in use in Tigris-Euphrates Valley from its invention about 3500 B.C. down to 600 B.C.) for the Jaredites; Hebrew = FALSE, NEPHITES used NEPHITIC=SABELLI's CHARACTERS and LANGUAGE and (NOT) Egyptian for the Nephites (DIDN'T USE HEBREW OR EGYPT LANGUAGE or SCRIPTING).

EGYPTIAN—Reformed is first PHOENICIAN. From it came the GREEK. NEPHITIC is a "blend" of GREEK + PHOENICIAN (reformed Egyptians) + Hebrew languages.
The name given to the style of characters in use in the days of Mormon in which the records were engraven on the sacred plates. These characters were greatly modified from those used by Nephi and the other earlier recorders (Anthon's CARACTORS show the VARIETY of NEPHITIC characters, of several styles and their modifications).
Stan Larson, Quest for the Gold Plates, p.258
Morm. 9:32 Which are called among us the reformed Egyptian
EGYPTIANS—The people of Egypt.
1 Ne. 1:2 Learning of the Jews, and the language of the Egyptians: because Nephites lived in Egypt before arriving to live in Israel=Judah's kingdom.
1 Ne. 4:3 And to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians
HEBREW—The language of the people of Israel
Morm. 9:33 We should have written in Hebrew --> Hebrew text was FOUND IN OHIO PLACES (nearby CUMORAH and EAST SEA=ONTARIO LAKE)
WRITING
1 Ne. 6:1 Upon these plates which I am writing
WRITINGS
WRITE
Cannot Write—
Not Write—
Be Written—
Been Written—
I Have Written—
Have Written—
Is Written—
Not Written—
Which Were Written—
Were Written—
Written—
WROTE
....

Hebrew: For very exciting, but meager, script data just now (March 6, 1975) received, see the letter . . . from Professor George F. Carter, formerly of Johns Hopkins University and now of Texas A&M University. A seal found at Tlatilco (suburb of Mexico City) bears the Hebrew name, Hiram, apparently in Egyptian script! Carter's reference to other Old World scripts— Iberic, Carthaginian = PHOENICIAN, and Libyan—found on the Atlantic coast of North America—are exciting. However, they don't help the Book of Mormon script test, which deals exclusively with Cuneiform, Hebrew, and Egyptian, to be found in the Norman-Sorenson designated territory. Proof of a voyage from Libya doesn't prove the Lehi voyage from Arabia—but it could relate to or even be the Mulek voyage! A cylinder seal found at Tlatilco, Mexico, bearing a Hebrew name, Hiram! Wow!

.... In my opinion, they lend more support to Sorenson and Norman than all of the configuration-dimension-direction-topography ...


GLASS
Ether 3:1 White and clear, even as transparent glass. FOUND IN OHIO BURROW's CAVE as the huge transparent glass HAND.


The ceramic toys constitute the only evidence of the wheel in ancient times for the areas designated by the proponents. The great murals of Bonampak and of Teotihuacan contain no picture of carts or chariots. The innumerable stone sculptured monuments, portraying much of the ancient way of life—including sedan chairs—give us no representation of carts or chariots. None have been found portrayed in ceramics. A visit to the Cairo Museum, to the University of Pennsylvania Museum, to the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, [and] to the Field Museum in Chicago reveals to visitors undisputed and powerful evidence supporting the existence of wheels (utilitarian), carts, chariot[s], and works in glass (great numbers of glass vases and dishes survive, for example from ancient Egypt) from areas referenced in the Bible. Complete chariots of wood and iron have turned up in tombs at various points in the ancient Middle East.

To my knowledge no pre-Columbian glass has been found in the regions pointed to by Norman and Sorenson. The wheeled toys and the three glyphs from Chiapa de Corzo don't give our friends much of a total score for their geographical selections.
Conclusion

The evidence supporting the geographical views of Norman and Sorenson, under the exacting tests laid down by the text of the Book of Mormon, is indeed very meager. We have the cylinder seal from Chiapa de Corzo, the cylinder seal from Tlatilco and the toys with wheels. That's about all. This paucity of specific support presents, at least to me, a dilemma. One way out of the dilemma is to say that everything was scrambled and lost because of the upheavals described in 3 Nephi for the time of the crucifixion. In my personal opinion, this is not a satisfactory escape hatch. Virtually all of the data in the Book of Mormon must be credited to Mormon and his abridgment of the "larger plates." He and Moroni, writing in the fourth century (over 300 years after the crucifixion), were responsible for the last 400 pages of the text. And it is in those 400 pages that most of the geographical data appear. Mormon doesn't say that his references to geography are useless and hopeless.

Further, innumerable excavations made in the area we are dealing with, and in the time span (3000 B.C.—400 A.D.) with which we are involved, reveal great undisturbed architectural structures, extensive relatively undisturbed ancient strata, etc., etc.—right through the time of the crucifixion.

I don't have the answer to the dilemma. I just call it up.

I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong.

Respectfully submitted,
[signed] Thomas Stuart Ferguson
Thomas Stuart Ferguson
2 March 1975

[_moksha]

1975, eh? I think about that time the free-enterprising and prophetic men of Sweetwater Investments were looking for a way to beat allegory into timeshares.

Hey, keep up these investigations and we may have a definitive answer to the question of where the Book of Mormon took place. by the way, is there any veiled mention of maple syrup in Book of Mormon?

[_ELYSAB]

MOKSHA, most (the major part) of the Book of Mormon was written in what is now main (core, main land) USA, as from New York State (New York town included) to somewhere WEST SEA (Lake Erie). And includes some of Canada also, as Ontario province.

In relation if there any veiled mention of maple syrup in Book of Mormon, I don't know. I have none expertise in food processing and thus I could not notice any "veiled" recipe or even mention about any type of maple syrup... Sorry.



f you take the WRONG BUS toward the WRONG DIRECTION, you are not to REACH the desired DESTINATION: the beneficial use of GEOGRAPHY of Book of Mormon...

That was the case of the ARCHEOLOGY OF Book of Mormon because it took the WRONG BUS: the wrong TOPOGRAPHY or GEOGRAPHY of the Book of Mormon, to MESO-AMERICA and MEXICO, because it was easy to "fake" plenty available false remains and turn them into "false nephitic remains". False + False = Truth ??
.

They say they trust in their FIRST and MAIN prophet, JOSEPH SMITH, Brigham Yound, Woodroof, etc. Parley Pratt.

But in the practice, they believe such prophets were ignorant men in subjects of Science, like topography and GEOGRAPHY.

Thus they believed that in subjects that are like ACADEMIC, as TOPOGRAPHY, ARCHEOLOGY, GEOGRAPHY, etc. such academic men are the "WISES OF ZION", as if Aaron replacing Moses: expert in making "tangible god ("remains") for people believe in them, as if scientific "gold idol" (intellectual one).

Thus the advises and teachings from Joseph Smith and others first prophets, related to such expertise fields of human knowledge, are not to be linked to "religion" even if religion sponsored, somehow, such LDS people, as religious Moses' followers people sponsored Aaron's gold calf.

It is like if Moses' followers had died in the footsteps of Sinai Mountain and religion was to be based on Aaron's scientific guidance on how to scientifically build the "new tangible gold calf" (from Mexico and Meso-America) for people be able to "touch" on something "tangible" as their religion, as catholic Egyptians were doing.

Quite a rebellion against Moses: instead of staying just believing on some accounts (tales? fables?) on some gold plates that nobody can touch or see.

At least now, in the scientific hands of Aaron and Zion, they can see and touch and visit the remains of a nephitic civilization. Quite like they could grasp on the feets and horns of the Aaron's "gold" calf.

It appears that Joseph Smith and other first prophets were very clear that NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION spread from somewhere having as extreme limits the New York town region (the ONANdogas Indians region, Cumorah Hill, EAST SEA = ONTARIO LAKE, Ishtmus of Niagara) to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS.

The most clear disclosure about that was in the event of the discovery of the skeleton of ZELF, the White Lamanite Warrior, next to the Illinois River. In such occasion Joseph Smith disclosed about who such ZELPH lamanite was as so important to be known from Cumorah Hill and of the ONANdogas Indians (they are from N.Y., and acording NY Jews, are descendents from Judah, from ONAN) and told such person was known (personally...) up to the Rocky Mountains (as New Mexico... we can guess...). There is vast literature on that, including in Church records. But Smart "Zion's scientist, Wises" convinced that the first leaders were "ignorants" in science subjects: removed (replaced) them and decided to build the "god = gold calf" for worship in Mexico to Guatemala, as being the Nephitic Empire.



We can see such VAST NEPHITIC EMPIRE in LDS maps, that became the "official Church maps", with Jesus coming to Earth, landing in front of some Mayan of Mexican pyramid... Used as official teaching literature. Just click on the next URL and you will see the MAIN BROAD GEOGRAPHIC AREA of NEPHITIC LANDS.

http://img12.mediafire.com/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b6g.jpg
CLICK on previous URL and see the FULL IMAGE

You can see that the NEPHITIC LAND is composed of relatively COLD WEATHER LANDS,
not WARM (tropical) and HOT (equatorial) as the MEXICAN to CENTRAL AMERICA (Meso-American, as GUATEMALA) lands that are the "MODELS" for the IMAGINARY LANDS ("tropical ones") used for the BYU, for the LDS as FARMS and etc.

It is evident that ANIMALS and VEGETALS from cold weather places, the extreme majority of them as mentioned in Book of Mormon, are not to live or survive long in such "tropical hot places". What an imagination! Dare! Just to transforme "pagan remains" into Nephit remains...

You can see that all lands for NEPHITIC PEOPLE LIVE are quite temperated to quite cold lands, as numbered from 1 (New York town region with their OnanDongas Indians), 2 (Cumorah hill region, Ontario Lake), 3 (Erie Lake, Niagara Falls, Kirtland-Oh), 4 (Independence, Missouri), 5 (Nauvoo, Illinois), 6 (Winter Quarters), 8 (Los Lunas in Rocky Mountains = Sierra Nevada in New Mexico), 10 (where ZELF was found next to Illinois River).

That is basically the GEOGRAPHY of Book of Mormon in its CORE: a quite COLD WEATHER-CLIMATE CONDITION, ideal for all cultures of all plantations, trees and animals as mentioned in Book of Mormon. For sure growing such plants and animals is nothing ideal for the CLIMATE and WEATHER of MEXICO and Central America: appears to be a joke say that. It is possible with modernity but it will require great effort and investiments, as on genetics and technology.



You can see the MOST VERY IMPORTANT AND START OF THE CORE OF THE NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION, AT ITS START IN U.S.A., around NEW YORK STATE and N.Y. town:


http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/e23fdc8033ffcb901516eb7eeb84e8e4681db09f84b912de47d6b4ef692369f06g.jpg
CLICK on previous URL to see the IMAGE very enlarged

You will see from the place where the NEPHITES unboarded the SAIL-SHIP ("CARAVEL TYPE", small but very fast), next to Liberty Statue (to be made) in LAND OF LIBERTY. They moved toward HUDSON RIVER and arrived in CUMORAH HILL and in LAKE ONTARIUM = ONTARIO = "ONT" A R IUM, the LAKE (EAST SEA) of SILVER, as it was mined in the "neck" most narrow of Isthmus of Niagara, where we have the Niagara Falls (Sidon River Falls). You can see that the WEST SEA (ERIE LAKE) in fact is sited at the WEST (or western) of the ONTARIO LAKE = EAST SEA... Can you see?


For sure the CLIMATE (and WHEATER) of such above shown region, around SEA WEST (LAKE ERIE) and SEA EAST (LAKE ONTARIO) and CUMORAH HILL and to HUDSON RIVER to N.Y. TOWN, are region with COLD CLIMATE and VERY SEVERE COLD WEATHER. I had been in such region some times.

Such is the IDEAL region for growing vegetation as described in Book of Mormon, not doing something absurd as having the silly idea of growing them in MEXICO to GUATEMALA and most absurd is the archeological idea of trying to find some grains and seed of that very cold climate in so hot tropical climate places of high humidity. Crazy ideas.... nonsense... Hear the prophets!


http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/zelph.htm
Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior. by Sandra Tanner ... prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea (EASTern SEA) to the Rocky Mountains (NEW MEXICO???). ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelph
Zelph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Zelph is a minor figure in Mormon history. In May and June 1834 Joseph ... were from Zelph, a "white Lamanite" general who was a righteous man. .... Woodruff also states that Zelph "that was known from the hill Cumorah on East sea to ... (EAST SEA --> ONTARIO SEA=LAKE is the "SEA" next to CUMORAH HILL that is "ON" the LAKE, "ON its MARGIN" in Good English)





To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:

Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test

Plant-Life Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants (FOR COLD/TEMPERATED CLIMATE) in regions proposed ("TROPICAL, EQUATORIAL, VERY HOT") as Nephite-Lamanite country of people that don't trust on their first and main prophets... for them Nephitic empire was USA...:

FIGS
3 Ne. 14:16 Gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles

GRAPES
Do we have plenty (or even some or one) native Grape vine progressing in hot Mexico and Central America (Meso-America)? Not of European colonization or from USA/Canada origin?

2 Ne. 15:2 He looked that it should bring forth grapes
2 Ne. 15:2 And it brought forth wild grapes
2 Ne. 15:4 I looked that it should bring forth grapes
2 Ne. 15:4 It brought forth wild grapes
3 Ne. 14:16 Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of

Barley: None
Figs: None
Grapes: None -------> YIOU CAN SEE NEXT (BELOW) HOW FALSE IS THIS CONCLUSION. IT IS FOR TROPICAL-EQUATORIAL CLIMATE (MEXICO, GUATEMALA)
Wheat: None

This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.

WRONG PLACE. WRONG SCIENTISTS. THEY SHOULD CONSIDER Book of Mormon MORE SERIOUSLY. AND THEY SHOULD BE FARMERS.
I HAVE HAD MANY FARMS IN MY LIFE. SOME FOR COLD WEATHER CONDITIONS. SOME FOR VERY HOT EQUATORIAL CLIMATE CONDITIONS. IT IS VERY ABSRUD FOR MY MIND THE IDEA OF SOME INTELLIGENT CIVILIZATION TRYING TO PLANT VEGETATION FOR VERY COLD CLIMATE IN MY EQUATORIAL FARMS. I WOULD CALL THEM CRAZY. And the opposite is true, because the first frost would kill or ruin such vegetation. For sure it is possible to have some slow genetic manipulation/adaptations.



If these SCIENTISTS used less salt in their Academic diet, they would had selected the correct GEOGRAPHY for the NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION (also Jareditic...) and now they could have TOPOGRAPHIC good maps with the trials followed by Indians in their travels and for their battles. Maybe I would re-open my mapping company for doing that. I already made some maps, for such purpose, just for "demonstration" of such capability and I discovered some huge SUSPENDED BRIDGES over the NIAGARA RIVER, downstream NIAGARA FALLS, in a restricted Military Zone (thus well preserved one....). Many sites were published on that.... I was just following Indian trails, doing some mapping service with USGS topographic maps, of very good quality, and some satelite pictures of very high resolution at hand. And I found the "shoulders" of the Bridges!


It is AMAZING when SCIENTISTS have EYES and can't SEE the evident TRUTH. That their GEOGRAPHY of Book of Mormon is very BIASED, very FAULTY: DEVIATED.


It is PLENTTY OF NATIVE and WILD GRAPES in COLD-TEMPERATED CLIMATE of USA and CANADA. Also of other similar FRUITS of Book of Mormon.

Searched with GOOGLE for GRAPES with: wild NATIVE grapes USA CANADA



http://www.wildfoods.information/wildfoods/wildgrape.html
Wild Grape

http://www.wildfoods.information/wildfoods/wildgrape.html -
From then on, I would occasionally pick a cluster of wild grapes when I was .... are native over a broad area of the eastern United States and Canada and ...


http://www.ehow.com/how_5937740_identify-native-grapevines.html
How to Identify Native Grapevines

http://www.ehow.com

http://www.google.com.br/url?q=http://www.ehow.com/plant-care/&sa=X&ei=8TJETtvfFYjV0QGO9sS9CQ&ved=0CCYQ6QUoADAB&usg=AFQjCNGLtxmSTEWc34xmBAbvJ1k5q-95fA
Plant Care
Over 20 different species of wild grape are native to the United States and Canada, comprising nearly half of the 50 species of wild grape species ...[/size]

http://www.ehow.com/info_8651744_fast-growing-grape-vines.html
Fast Growing Grape Vines | eHow.com[/url]
http://www.ehow.com/ ]www.ehow.com[/url] › [/size]
http://www.google.com.br/url?q=http://www.ehow.com/plant-care/&sa=X&ei=8TJETtvfFYjV0QGO9sS9CQ&ved=0CDEQ6QUoADAC&usg=AFQjCNGLtxmSTEWc34xmBAbvJ1k5q-95fA
Plant Care Riverbank Grape (Vitis riparia) is a vigorously developing wild grape vine ...

http://www.google.com.br/search?hl=pt-BR&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Apt-BR%3Aofficial&channel=s&biw=1013&bih=572&q=wild+NATIVE+grapes+USA+CANADA&btnG=Pesquisar&oq=wild+NATIVE+grapes+USA+CANADA&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=12000l13424l0l15523l7l7l0l0l0l0l318l1053l3.2.1.1l7l0
Show more results from e ehow.com


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape
Grape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape

Native purple grapes belonging to the Vitis genus proliferated in the wild across North ... are native to the Eastern United States and Canada. Vitis riparia, a wild vine of North America, is sometimes used for winemaking and for jam. ...


http://en.mimi.hu/wine/vitis_labrusca.html
* Vitis labrusca - (Wine): Definition
en.mimi.hu http://www.google.com.br/url?q=http://en.mimi.hu/wine/index_wine.html&sa=X&ei=8TJETtvfFYjV0QGO9sS9CQ&ved=0CEYQ6QUoADAE&usg=AFQjCNHQd-1HE6vqLW6HVBVF3iK_X7-GIA
Wine Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States. ... cross-pollinated version of the wild grape native to North America. ...


http://www.qdma.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=104%3Anatural-species-profile-wild-grapes&catid=11%3Afood-plots--habitat-management&Itemid=30&lang=en
QDMA Canada - Natural Species Profile -- Wild Grapes
wild-grapes... Canada. slide-top. what-we-do_01 what-we-do_02 what-we-do_03 ... Wild grapes (Vitis spp.) are native to the U.S. and found in the wild in all corners


http://www.gardenguides.com/96039-types-grape-vines.html
Types of Grape Vines | Garden Guides Because a bacteria present in American soils is lethal to native grapes[/u], ... Wild Grapes. The United States and Canada together are home to over 20 ...

http://www.cookeryonline.com/mealexperience/Grapes/Index.htm
Types of Grape Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States There are over 5,000 varieties of wine grapes . Below are some of the main types, ...


http://answers.yourdictionary.com/food-cooking/where-did-grapes-originate.html
Where Did Grapes Originate? The Vitis labrusca is native to the eastern United States, and areas of Canada. The grapes grown on this cultivar are usually used to make table wine, ...


http://usagardener.com/how_to_grow_fruits/how_to_grow_grapes.php
Grapes - growing Grapes - how to grow Grapes - USA Gardener Tips For Buying Bulk Soil. Frost Dates - USA. Frost Dates - Canada ... and unlike most fruit crops, many grapes are native to North American]. The wild grapes found by early settlers were quickly rejected because they were high in acid, ...

[_ELYSAB]

Basic technical information on WHERE it is grown the VITI VINES (GRAPES) around the world and technical aspects of cultivating GRAPE VINES and of PRODUCING VINES.

WILD GRAPES
Wild grape may refer to:
* Vitis species; specially Vitis vinifera subsp. sylvestris (the wild ancestor of Vitis vinifera), Vitis californica (California wild grape), Vitis girdiana (desert wild grape), and Vitis riparia
* Ampelocissus acetosa, also known as Djabaru
* Ampelopsis brevipedunculata , also known as porcelain berry
* Cyphostemma juttae - a slow-growing ornamental plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_vinifera
Information about Vitis vinifera (Common Grape Vine): a species of Vitis, native to the Mediterranean region, central Europe, and southwestern Asia, from Morocco and Portugal north to southern Germany and east to northern Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vitis-vinifera-2.JPG
CLICK and see the IMAGE

Vitis californica (California wild grape) is a wild grape species native to most of California and southwestern Oregon. It is a common sight along the banks of the Sacramento River.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vitis_californica_with_grapes.jpg
CLICK and see the IMAGE

The wild grape species Vitis girdiana is known as the desert wild grape and Southern California wild grape. It is quite similar to the California wild grape, Vitis californica. They are currently treated as two different species but may be subspecies of one.

It is a climbing grapevine growing at low elevation in Southern California, including some of the Channel Islands, and adjacent Baja California. he Cahuilla of southern California made wine and raisins from the grapes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vitisgirdiana1.JPG
CLICK and see the IMAGE

Vitis riparia Michx, also commonly known as River Bank Grape or Frost Grape, is a native American climbing or trailing vine, widely distributed from Quebec to Texas, and Montana to New England. It is long-lived and capable of reaching into the upper canopy of the tallest trees. It produces dark fruit that are appealing to both birds and people, and has been used extensively in commercial viticulture as grafted rootstock and in hybrid grape breeding programs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P1020403.JPG
CLICK and see the IMAGE
-----> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_riparia
HABITAT --->
V. riparia has the largest geographical range of any of the North American Vitis species. It is present across nearly the entire eastern half of North America, excepting the far south and the most western portions of the great plains. Variants of the species have been observed as far north as Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba, Canada and as far west as Montana, Nebraska, and North Dakota.

In the wild, the vine thrives along exposed areas with good sun exposure and adequate soil moisture, such as riverbanks, forest clearings, fence lines and along road sides. The species has adapted to a variety of soil chemistries.

Some V. riparia vines have been known to withstand temperatures of up to -57 °C (−70 °F).[1] The foliage is typically resistant to mildew and black rot, and the roots resistant to phylloxera. The berries however, are often sensitive to mildew and black rot if the vine is exposed to prolonged wet and humid conditions.

Perhaps the most significant agricultural usage of V. riparia is as grafted rootstock for Vitis vinifera. Important advantages of the use of V. riparia (and hybrids between it and other Vitis species) include resistance to phylloxera and adaptation to variant soil types.

Due to the extensive cold hardiness and fungal disease resistance of this species, it has been used extensively in grape breeding programs to transfer cold hardy and disease resistant genes to domesticated grapes. The French-American hybrid grapes are notable examples of these attempts. V. riparia has been used extensively for over a hundred years to create hardy hybrids.

[_ELYSAB]

ANIMALS OF Book of Mormon
The problem is that they search ANIMALS OF COLD to temperate climate in place of HOT CLIMATE. They are not there. And they make us to believe that such animals are not yet found, they are are plenty available in NORTH AMERICA... What is wrong? USA and CANADA is plenty of BIG ANIMALS being used and for benefit of NEPHITES and of NATIVE INDIANS. They should read the letter of Chief Seatle to the great president of USA that tried to buy Indian lands through Chief Seatle.

Native American cuisine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_cuisine

# 6 Crops and ingredients

* 6.1 Non-animal foodstuffs
* 6.2 Hunted or livestock

MOKSHA: by the way, is there any veiled mention of maple syrup in Book of Mormon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sugar-Making_Among_the_Indians_in_the_North.gif
CLICK and see the image
A 19th-century illustration, "Sugar-Making Among the Indians in the North". Aboriginal peoples living in the northeastern part of North America were the first people known to have produced maple syrup and maple sugar.

Maple syrup
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Bottled maple syrup

Maple syrup is a syrup usually made from the xylem sap of sugar maple, red maple, or black maple trees, although it can also be made from other maple species such as the bigleaf maple. In cold climates, these trees store starch in their trunks and roots before the winter; the starch is then converted to sugar that rises in the sap in the spring. Maple trees can be tapped by boring holes into their trunks and collecting the exuded sap. The sap is processed by heating to evaporate some of the water, leaving the concentrated syrup.

Maple syrup was first collected and used by indigenous people of North America. The practice was adopted by European settlers, who gradually improved production methods.



Hunted or livestock of AMERICA CONTINENTE (mainly North America)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_Cow_and_Calf.jpg
Bison cow and calf: USA/Canada. Probably was translated as cow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moose_superior.jpg
Moose (probably is one animal of Book of Mormon that is un-named)

* Antelope (is from North America). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blackbuck_male_female.jpg
* Armadillo: South and Central America (Aztecas land)
* Badger
* Bear
* Beaver
* Bighorn sheep
* Bison - Originally found throughout most of North America
* Burro - from Europe
* Camel - extinct
* Cattle - important European import
* Chipmunk
* Deer
* Dove
* Duck
* Elk
* Geese
* Ground hog
* Grouse
* Guanaco - Hunted in South America by hunter-gatherer societies, for ex. in Patagonia until the 19th century.
* Guinea pig - Domesticated in the Andes
* Hog - important European import
* Honey wasp - Brachygastra mellifica, Brachygastra lecheguana, and Polybia occidentalis, a source of honey found from the Southwestern United States to Argentina
* Horse - Although imported by Europeans, the horse was still very important to Native American cultures throughout the Americas (although famously on the North American Plains) in the historic era
* Hutia
* Iguana
* Livestock
* Llama - Domesticated in the Andes
* Locust (cicada)
* Manatee
* Mastodon - extinct
* Moose
* Mourning dove
* Mule
* Muscovy duck - Domesticated in Mesoamerica
* Opossum
* Otter
* Passenger Pigeon - extinct
* Peccaries
* Pheasant
* Porcupine
* Prairie dog
* Pronghorns (antelope)
* Quail
* Rabbit
* Sheep - important European import
* Skunk
* Sloth
* Stingless bee - Melipona beecheii and M. yucatanica, Mayan source of honey
* Squirrel
* Turkey
* Turtle
* Wood rat
* Woolly mammoth - extinct

Wild onion festival ----> points to Egypt?

[_ELYSAB]

Well that puts the BYU-FAIR-FARMS-LDS idea of there being no native American grapes to rest.

I knew since 1978 that some fruits and plants of Canada, in Montreal, were from WILD origin, even being like of European - Israel aspect, as some apple and grapes.

Also there are onions, garlic, blue "berry", "morus" (it is a hebrew name, mr: nephitic/sabellic,?), figs, etc. Because my wife and I asked about them, in a kind of botanical garden we were visiting in our return trip from London to San Francisco and we stopped in many places, as Quebec, Montreal, Buffalo, Chicago, ...SLC,... (we were living in Berkeley and studying at the University of California, where I got my M.Sc. in Sanitary Engineer and started my PhD).

They couldn't explain how the same plant species could had come from Europe and Israel to Canada, but they were not exactly the same modern variety, but some wild varieties. We had none idea that Book of Mormon could be real thing.

There are persons that think that Geography is just something related to MAPS, to topography. In fact it is very BROAD WIDENED information linked to the position of a given place and that information changes through time (needs frequent updating). We have something like geographic information system (GIS), geographical information system.

A geographic information system (GIS) lets us visualize, question, analyze, interpret, and understand data in many ways that reveal relationships, patterns, and trends in the form of maps, globes, reports, and charts. They point out for a serious scientist that Book of Mormon is not telling us that Nephites' kingdom and lends were anywhere from Mexico to somewhere in Central America. In fact they suffered with the collapse of Nephitic empire, but "later on", out of the pages of Book of Mormon.

It is very clear, from the information provided you in my last post about NATIVE WILD GRAPES, that they were only living in WESTERN USA and in CANADA. If they were brought by the NEPHITES and unloaded at the harbor of N.Y. (at the gateway for LIBERTY LAND... with the "virtual STATUE of LIBERTY" as verbal WARNING from leaders), and being the NEPHITES KINGDOM basically in the WESTERN PART of the USA, it is natural that the GRAPES were cultivated in the NEPHITES KINGDOM LANDS.

Quite like a GEOGRAPHIC "GIS" relationship, a LINK between one event (the cultivation) and other (the weather, climate, soil, mapping, etc.).

It is very interesting that the GRAPES didn't go (in great and intense CULTIVATION) to the WEST COAST, as to CALIFORNIA, as to the NAPA VALLEY. Where I visited the GRAPES plantation and even some WINE industries as ALMADEN, where I got quite "high", while visiting the industrial plant (with other coleagues and professors of the Univ. of California... technical visit).



In the case of FIGS, probably they already became HYBRIDS with other varieties that came from Europe and Middle East, because it is very easy for them generate hybrids as result of easy polinization process.

It is like the original European Bees "disappearing" by assimilation with their reproduction with African Bees causing their "assimilation" and thus the original population of European Bees "disappears" after the "contact", quite like we had with the contact of "native figs" (from Nephites period) with recent Immigrants (after year 1,500) and their imported new variety of figs.

What about replace FIGS by APPLES?

http://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/nativetrees.htm
Wild Apples / crab apples
See such WILD NATIVE INDIAN APPLES:

Our trees are grown from seeds and their small fruits are hence variable. They are great pollinators of grafted apples. The spring flower show is spectacular and the small fruit, having a very high pectin content help make great jellies.


http://whatscookingamerica.net/Fruit/Apples.htm
Apples, History and Legends of Apples, Apple Recipes, Apple ...

- There are between 25 to 30 kinds of wild apples grown throughout the world with seven ... Crab apple trees are the only native apples to the United States. ...



Cranberry (native Wild APPLES) see them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cranberries20101210.jpg
and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Cranberries20101210.jpg
Click on previous URL and see very large number of very enlarged CRANBERRIES fruits, from vines or shrubs.
Cranberries are low, creeping shrubs or vines up to 2 metres (7 ft) long and 5 to 20 centimetres (2 to 8 in) in height;[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry#cite_note-1][/url]
they have slender, wiry stems that are not thickly woody and have small The fruit is a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry
berry that is larger than the leaves of the plant; it is initially white, but turns a deep red when fully ripe. It is edible, with an acidic taste that can overwhelm its sweetness. They can be found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid
acidic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog
bogs throughout the cooler regions of the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Hemisphere
Northern Hemisphere



HAVE IN MIND THAT THE APPLES BECAME CULTIVATED BY THE NEPHITES, THUS IN NEPHITIC LANDS AND KINGDOM:

Cranberries are a major commercial crop in certain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States
American states and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada
Canadian provinces (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry#Cultivation
cultivation and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry#Food_uses
uses below). Most cranberries are processed into products such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry_juice
juice, sauce, and sweetened
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dried_cranberries
dried cranberries, with the remainder sold fresh to consumers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry_sauce
Cranberry sauce is regarded an indispensable part of traditional American and Canadian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving
Thanksgiving menus and some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe
European winter festivals

Vaccinium macrocarpon or Oxycoccus macrocarpus (Large cranberry, American Cranberry, Bearberry) native to northeastern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
North America eastern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada
Canada, and eastern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States
United States, south to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina
North Carolina at high altitudes = COLD WEATHER/CLIMATE). It differs from V. oxycoccos in the leaves being larger, 10–20 mm long, and in its slightly apple-like taste.

Vaccinium erythrocarpum or Oxycoccus erythrocarpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Mountain_Cranberry
Southern Mountain Cranberry native to south eastern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
North America at high altitudes COLD WEATHER/CLIMATE in the southern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Mountains
Appalachian Mountains, and also in eastern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia
Asia.


Etymology and history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry


The name cranberry derives from "craneberry", first named by early European settlers in America who felt the expanding flower, stem, calyx, and petals resembled the neck, head, and bill of a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_%28bird%29
crane. Another name used in northeastern Canada is mossberry. The traditional English name for Vaccinium oxycoccos,

http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenber%C8%9De
fenberry, originated from plants found growing in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen
fen (marsh) lands. In 17th century New England cranberries were sometimes called "bearberries" as bears were often seen feeding on them.

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
North America,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

Native Americans were the first to use cranberries as food. Native Americans used cranberries in a variety of foods, especially for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican
pemmican, wound medicine and dye. Calling the red berries Sassamanash natives may have introduced cranberries to starving English settlers in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts
Massachusetts who incorporated the berries into traditional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_%28United_States%29
Thanksgiving feasts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
American Revolutionary War veteran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hall_%28American%29
Henry Hall is credited as first to farm cranberries in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Cod
Cape Cod town of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_%28town%29,_Massachusetts
Dennis around 1816. In the 1820s cranberries were shipped to Europe.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry#cite_note-5
Cranberries became popular for wild harvesting in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries
Nordic countries and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia
Russia. In
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland
Scotland, the berries were originally wild-harvested but with the loss of suitable habitat, the plants have become so scarce that this is no longer done

Thus, we can "see" other evidence that PLANTS from the COLD to TEMPERATE climate, as FROM Book of Mormon, were linked in their spatial distribution, over the USA and CANADA, to the same distribution of NEPHITES and LAMANITES over the same GEOGRAPHIC political boundaries for such kingdoms, as provided by the Book of Mormon and True Authorities. They were not conducted to be planted and spread over MEXICO and GUATEMALA for European settlers found plenty of them or very similar to them covering such "NEPHITIC BYU-FARMS-PLACES", VOID of ferocious lamanites descendents, speaking and writing yet some of the original nephitic culture, as inscriptions written in NEPHITIC, quite like in accordance with the "CARACTORS" that JOSEPH SMITH told he READ from the GOLD PLATES... Where is the truth? Where are the resemblances of written objects in quite like CARACTORS? Where are the PLANTS? Where are the ANIMALS? What is MISSING in the "HOT VERSION" of the Book of Mormon? Equatorial like version for NEPHITES LIVING IN THE EQUATORIAL CLIMATE? ".

That is GIS in action, in movement, into practice. Making what could be dispersed information, making a coherent data bank and dynamic, for an useful purpose.

[_just me]

Hebrew text was FOUND IN OHIO PLACES (nearby CUMORAH and EAST SEA=ONTARIO LAKE)
WRITING

What does this mean and what is it talking about?

[_ELYSAB]

JUST ME, no I my self.

In fact there are many sources of jewish things. If you were a Jew person it would be easier, as so many valuable things that were dug from Indians mounds were sould, at the end of the chain, to wealthy Jewish people living in New York, as traders and bankers, and there remain. Some for esoterism reasons.

When they get into some LDS persons, they denny as Satan's invention.

Sited in OHIO STATE
The Newark Holy Stones - Johnson-Humrickhouse Museum
http://www.jhmuseum.org/holy_stone_about.htm -
Em cacheSimilaresThe Newark Holy Stones is comprised of four objects: the Keystone, the Decalogue ... The context suggested a link with the Hopewell Indian culture, which thrived ... Charles Whittlesey, one of Ohio's noteworthy early archaeologists, ... with Hebraic letters that convey an abbreviated form of the Ten Commandments. ...

Many objects were found written in NEPHITIC, in Indian Mounds. Jews were the first able to translate them into English. They were able even to translate GOLD PLATES, if given then, and required.

And there is the huge BURROW's CAVE in OHIO
#
True Suppressions 3: Burrows Cave, "Newark Holy Stones, "Sopher ...
http://s8int.com/truesuppressions3.html
By 1992, two books had been written detailing the discovery and contents of Burrows ... culture of the Ohio Valley and the later Anasazi of the American southwest. ... Barry Fell, after quickly looking at some photos of the Burrows Cave rocks, .... They preached that a group of Hebrews came to the New world, where over the ...


[url]br.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/mormons_brasil/message/1701[/url]

OHIO ILLINOIS BURROWS CAVE OBJECTS ENGRAVED GOLD ETRUSCAN CHARACTERS ... Some characterswere taken from Etruscan (= NEPHITIC, ANCIENT ITALIAN = sabelic OF 600 B.C.), others from Hebrew or another ....


Indiana Jones' page

http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/tinkywinky/316/indiana.htm


A never -before-published photograph of a portrait-stone from Burrows Cave, a southern Illinois site containing approximately 10,000 such artifacts

In 1971, Cyrus Gordon identified the letters inscribed on the stone as Paleo-Hebrew of ... Skupin (1989) analyzes the orthographic errors of the Los Lunas text itself, and ...
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/decalog.html ...


In 1971, Cyrus Gordon identified the letters inscribed on the stone as Paleo-Hebrew of approximately the first or second century A.D. According to him, the five letters to the left of the comma-shaped word divider read, from right to left, LYHWD, or "for Judea."

In 1988, wood fragments found with the inscription were Carbon-14 dated to somewhere between 32 A.D. and 769 A.D. These dates are consistent with the apparent date of the letters.


http://illinoiscaves.com/response.htm

We had been invited to show some of the Burrows Cave artifacts in any state ... From this effort came two self-published books and a non-profit corporation .... Returning now to the issue of Burrows Cave artifacts, I have access in Columbus, OH to ...... range of vowels - that is their great advance over Phoenician and Hebrew. ...



I know The Book of Mormon to be an ancient record of devine inspiration. While reading this document for the first time, I was amazed that some people could think that this was a product of imagination. It is just too complex. Latter I read the diary of Joesph Smith. It was apparent on page 1 that this fine gentleman was not well educated at the time of the coming forth of The Book of Mormon.

The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.8, Ch.11, Pg.221 - Pg.222:

"Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
"Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!

Years ago I had the luck to see a LDS video on Book of Mormon ere ruins in the Americas. I was hooked! I had a feeling that words could not describe! I had to start studing these evidences for some reason, right away. Some of the things I found amazed me. I had explored and studied Native American ruins and sites. Suddenly it seemed that this was something that was my "thing".

Now we have the internet . Want to see something cool? How about The Ten Commandments etched on a stone in New Mexico, written in ancient Hebrew ! When I first saw this I did turn myself about!


The Newark, Ohio Decalogue Stone and Keystone
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/decalog.html

The Keystone



# Several months earlier, in June of 1860, Wyrick had found an additional stone, also inscribed in Hebrew letters. This stone, shown above, is popularly known as the "Keystone" because of its general shape. However, it is too rounded to have actually served as a keystone. It was apparently intended to be held with the knob in the right hand, and turned to read the four sides in succession, perhaps repetitively. It might also have been suspended by the knob for some purpose. Although it is not pointed enough to have been a plumb bob, it could have served as a pendulum.

The material of the Keystone has been identified, probably by geologist Charles Whittlesey immediately after its discovery, as novaculite, a very hard fine-grained siliceous rock used for whetstones. The photographs here show its natural color. [Added 10/4/99.]

Click here to view the inscriptions on the four sides:
# Qedosh Qedoshim, "Holy of Holies"
# Melek Eretz, "King of the Earth"
# Torath YHWH, "The Law of God"
# Devor YHWH, "The Word of God"

Wyrick found the Keystone within what is now a developed section of Newark, at the bottom of a pit adjacent to the extensive ancient Hopewellian earthworks there (c. 100 BC - 500 AD). Although the pit was surely ancient, and the stone was covered with 12-14" of earth, it is impossible to say when the stone fell into the pit. (See Wyrick's map of the Newark earthworks below.) It is therefore not inconceivable that the Keystone is genuine but somehow modern.

The letters on the Keystone are nearly standard Hebrew, rather than the very peculiar alphabet of the Decalogue stone. These letters were already developed at the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls (circa 200-100 B.C.), and so are broadly consistent with any time frame from the Hopewellian era to the present. For the past 1000 years or so, Hebrew has most commonly been written with vowel points and consonant points that are missing on both the Decalogue and Keystone. The absence of points is therefore suggestive, but not conclusive, of an earlier date.

Note that in the Keystone inscription Melek Eretz, the aleph and mem have been stretched so as to make the text fit the available space. Such dilation does occasionally appear in Hebrew manuscripts of the first millenium AD. Birnbaum, The Hebrew Scripts, vol. I, pp. 173-4, notes that "We do not know when dilation originated. It is absent in the manuscripts from Qumran ... The earliest specimens in this book are ... middle of the seventh century [AD]. Thus we might tentatively suggest the second half of the sixth century or the first half of the seventh century as the possible period when dilation first began to be employed." Dilation would not have appeared in the printed sources nineteenth century Ohioans would primarily have had access to.

The Hebrew letter shin is most commonly made with a V-shaped bottom. The less common flat-bottomed form that appears on the first side of the Keystone may provide some clue as to its origin. The exact wording of the four inscriptions may provide additional clues.

Today, both the Decalogue Stone and Keystone, or "Newark Holy Stones," as they are known, are on display in the Johnson-Humrickhouse Museum in Roscoe Village, 300 Whitewoman St., Coshocton, Ohio. Phone (740) 622-8710 for hours (note new area code). Plaster casts of the Decalogue stone and Keystone may be purchased from the Museum.





I hope you enjoy. There are THOUSAND of objects you asked for.

[_Ask]

Prophet Joseph Smith told...CUMORAH HILL to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS

Should you base a theory on a SINGLE SECOND HAND source?

What does this mean and what is it talking about?

It means he exhausted his welcome at other forums and will "use" yours now. Do not encourage the mentally insane.