Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

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_Buffalo
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Buffalo »

Nomad wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Too soon to declare victory? What do you think?

From what I've seen here, it's never too soon for you people.

Speaking of which, I've just finished reading a partial draft of a William Schryver article about the KEP. Very interesting.


I'm glad you find your own writing interesting, Will. Someone has to.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _cksalmon »

Chap wrote:Do you know of any claimed resemblance between the supposed Book of Mormon characters and any other known script that seems to you as close that this one? Or do you think that the characters given as Tironian are not fairly reproduced?


From the 1980 Thomas article, these matches strike me as ranging from decent to very good.

Image

+1 for the Micmac mishmash: second character from the top apparently contains the Masoretic segol. Shh, shh, shh: Don't care about dates.

What do the Tironian proponents make of the above matches vis-à-vis their own?
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Buffalo »

cksalmon wrote:
Chap wrote:Do you know of any claimed resemblance between the supposed Book of Mormon characters and any other known script that seems to you as close that this one? Or do you think that the characters given as Tironian are not fairly reproduced?


From the 1980 Thomas article, these matches strike me as ranging from decent to very good.

Image

+1 for the Micmac mishmash: second character from the top apparently contains the Masoretic segol. Shh, shh, shh: Don't care about dates.

What do the Tironian proponents make of the above matches vis-à-vis their own?


5 of the first seven bear little resemblance, but the rest are pretty good. The Tironian seems to be a closer match (and Joseph could have had access to them, which adds to the likelyhood of their use).

Another sample of Mi'kmaq looks much less like the Anthon transcript:

Image

The Mi'kmaq people lived a bit further north than Joseph, as far south as Maine. But I suppose it's possible that Joseph might have seen some of their writing. Interesting.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _DrW »

cksalmon wrote:
Chap wrote:Do you know of any claimed resemblance between the supposed Book of Mormon characters and any other known script that seems to you as close that this one? Or do you think that the characters given as Tironian are not fairly reproduced?


From the 1980 Thomas article, these matches strike me as ranging from decent to very good.

Image

+1 for the Micmac mishmash: second character from the top apparently contains the Masoretic segol. Shh, shh, shh: Don't care about dates.

What do the Tironian proponents make of the above matches vis-à-vis their own?

As a Tironian notes / Ogham script / Old Gaelic proponent, I say welcome to the party.

Since the Mi'kmaq hieroglyphic writing was introduced into the New World by a (big surprise) Roman Catholic missionary (Father le Clercq) around 1675, it cannot be claimed as ancient or even as having been developed in the New World.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _cksalmon »

DrW wrote:As a Tironian notes / Ogham script / Old Gaelic proponent, I say welcome to the party.

Since the Mi'kmaq hieroglyphic writing was introduced into the New World by a (big surprise) Roman Catholic missionary (Father le Clercq) around 1675, it cannot be claimed as ancient or even as having been developed in the New World.


I'm probably not associated with a relevant party. I'm an irrationalist, Nevermo Protestant.

It would seem that a situated availability to Joseph Smith, rather than ultimate historical provenance, however, is the more crucial question.

It looked like a slam dunk to me, until I looked at Nevo's link.

I suspect that selective juxtapositions of any given phenomenon are as likely to yield false positives as they are the Real Deal.

Dunno.

And I don't know the answer to this: Buffalo states, "Another sample of Mi'kmaq looks much less like the Anthon transcript...." But, is it also true that "another sample" of the Tironian notes / Ogham script / Old Gaelic looks "much less like the Anthon transcript," as well?

I don't know.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Nevo »

DrW wrote:Since the Mi'kmaq hieroglyphic writing was introduced into the New World by a (big surprise) Roman Catholic missionary (Father le Clercq) around 1675, it cannot be claimed as ancient or even as having been developed in the New World.

That is one opinion. Another is that the hieroglyphic writing system was adapted by Le Clercq from an existing pre-contact writing system (see, e.g., the work of anthropologist David L. Schmidt).

cksalmon wrote:And I don't know the answer to this: Buffalo states, "Another sample of Mi'kmaq looks much less like the Anthon transcript...." But, is it also true that "another sample" of the Tironian notes / Ogham script / Old Gaelic looks "much less like the Anthon transcript," as well?

Undoubtedly this is the case.

From Nick Pelling's critique on his blog Cipher Mysteries:

Are the letters shorthand? Just about anyone who has grasped the history of shorthand would quickly conclude that it is not a tachygraphic (“fast writing”) system, insofar as it is (as can be seen from the many fussy and overflourished letter-shapes) clearly not optimized for writing speed. Because it appears neither concise, memorizable, speedy, nor unambiguous, it’s a pretty poor match for the whole idea of shorthand....

Are the letters Tironian notae? Stout suggest comparisons between various individual Transcript letter-shapes and the sprawling array of Tironian notae accumulated over the centuries. However, my judgment is that you could construct visual correlations between just about any non-pictographic alphabet and Tironian notae: and so I’m very far from convinced that there is any immediate causality implicit in the choice of letter shapes....

Are the letters written in an Old Irish shorthand? Richard Stout points to one shape in particular (you can see an example on line 2 of the Anthon Transcript, two glyphs to the right of the filled square) comprising two left-curving lines joined by a horizontal line: he points to a resemblance with an Irish glyph used on “page 311″ of the late fourteenth century Book of Ballymote, and continues by pointing to resemblances between rows of dots elsewhere in the same manuscript and in the Anthon Transcript. Yet dots were used by medieval monks across Europe to encipher vowels: so I’m far from sold on the idea that rows of dots (which, in any case, were used a quite different way in the Transcript) link this to the Book of Ballymote at all.

[Underlining mine]

It should be remembered that Stout hand-picked his Tironian notae from not one, but two large collections of notae—Ulrich Friedrich Kopp's Paleographia critica and Emile Chatelain's Introduction à la Lecture des Notes Tironiennes—containing hundreds of examples to choose from. According to Wikipedia, the system has something in the neighborhood of 13,000 signs. Out of 13,000 signs, one would expect to find at least a few points of contact, whether there was an actual connection or not.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _DrW »

Nevo,

Just to clarify a bit before we proceed, are you claiming that the Anthon "Caractors" are actually "Reformed Egyptian" as claimed by Joseph Smith Jr.?
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Chap »

It is fairly clear that the testimony of Anthon as to what he saw when Martin Harris visited him in 1828, and how he reacted to it is going to be an important element in any future discussion - we must remember that at least one apologist has suggested that he was deliberately misrepresenting what took place. So let's have both his letters on the record here.


This is the first one, written six years after Harris's visit:

New York, Feb. 17, 1834.
Dear Sir -- I received this morning your favor of the 9th instant, and lose no time in making a reply. The whole story about my having pronouncd the Mormonite inscription to be "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" is perfectly false. Some years ago, a plain, and apparently simple-hearted farmer, called upon me with a note from Dr. Mitchell of our city, now deceased, requesting me to decypher, if possible, a paper, which the farmer would hand me, and which Dr. M. confessed he had been unable to understand. Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax.

When I asked the person, who brought it, how he obtained the writing, he gave me, as far as I can now recollect, the following account: A "gold book," consisting of a number of plates of gold, fastened together in the shape of a book by wires of the same metal, had been dug up in the northern part of the state of New York, and along with the book an enormous pair of "gold spectacles"! These spectacles were so large, that, if a person attempted to look through them, his two eyes would have to be turned towards one of the glasses merely, the spectacles in question being altogether too large for the breadth of the human face. Whoever examined the plates through the spectacles, was enabled not only to read them, but fully to understand their meaning. All this knowledge, however, was confined at that time to a young man, who had the trunk containing the book and spectacles in his sole possession. This young man was placed behind a curtain, in the garret of a farm house, and, being thus concealed from view, put on the spectacles occasionally, or rather, looked through one of the glasses, decyphered the characters in the book, and, having committed some of them to paper, handed copies from behind the curtain, to those who stood on the outside. Not a word, however, was said about the plates having been decyphered "by the gift of God." Everything, in this way, was effected by the large pair of spectacles. The farmer added, that he had been requested to contribute a sum of money towards the publication of the "golden book," the contents of which would, as he had been assured, produce an entire change in the world and save it from ruin. So urgent had been these solicitations, that he intended selling his farm and handing over the amount received to those who wished to publish the plates. As a last precautionary step, however, he had resolved to come to New York, and obtain the opinion of the learned about the meaning of the paper which he brought with him, and which had been given him as a part of the contents of the book, although no translation had been furnished at the time by the young man with the spectacles.

On hearing this odd story, I changed my opinion about the paper, and, instead of viewing it any longer as a hoax upon the learned, I began to regard it as part of a scheme to cheat the farmer of his money, and I communicated my suspicions to him, warning him to beware of rogues. He requested an opinion from me in writing, which of course I declined giving, and he then took his leave carrying the paper with him. This paper was in fact a singular scrawl. It consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed sideways, were arranged in perpendicular columns, and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican Calender given by Humboldt, but copied in such a way as not to betray the source whence it was derived. I am thus particular as to the contents of the paper, inasmuch as I have frequently conversed with my friends on the subject, since the Mormonite excitement began, and well remember that the paper contained any thing else but "Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Some time after, the same farmer paid me a second visit. He brought with him the golden book in print, and offered it to me for sale. I declined purchasing. He then asked permission to leave the book with me for examination. I declined receiving it, although his manner was strangely urgent. I adverted once more to the roguery which had been in my opinion practised upon him, and asked him what had become of the gold plates. He informed me that they were in a trunk with the large pair of spectacles. I advised him to go to a magistrate and have the trunk examined. He said the "curse of God" would come upon him should he do this. On my pressing him, however, to pursue the course which I had recommended, he told me that he would open the trunk, if I would take the "curse of God" upon myself. I replied that I would do so with the greatest willingness, and would incur every risk of that nature, provided I could only extricate him from the grasp of rogues. He then left me.

I have thus given you a full statement of all that I know respecting the origin of Mormonism, and must beg you, as a personal favor, to publish this letter immediately, should you find my name mentioned again by these wretched fanatics. Yours respectfully, CHAS. ANTHON.

E. D. Howe, Esq. Painesville, Ohio


Striking here in the present context is the statement that:

This young man was placed behind a curtain, in the garret of a farm house, and, being thus concealed from view, put on the spectacles occasionally, or rather, looked through one of the glasses, decyphered the characters in the book, and, having committed some of them to paper, handed copies from behind the curtain, to those who stood on the outside.


And also that:

no translation had been furnished at the time by the young man with the spectacles.


It seems therefore that Joseph Smith had handed out more than one transcription of the 'Caractors', although there he had as yet given no translation of them. We need not therefore be surprised if one transcript might differ from another, especially since the person making the transcript or copying that transcript (if that happened) was not writing in a known script in which he was literate (I phrase that carefully to allow for the logical possibility that Joseph Smith was copying from some real document, as well as anybody who copied from what he handed out from behind his curtain).


The second letter, written seven years later, thus thirteen years after Harris's visit, is as follows:

New York, April 3d, 1841.
Rev. and Dear Sir:
I have often heard that the Mormons claimed me for an auxiliary, but, as no one, until the present time, has ever requested from me a statement in writing, I have not deemed it worth while to say anything publicly on the subject. What I do know of the sect relates to some of the early movements; and as the facts may amuse you, while they will furnish a satisfactory answer to the charge of my being a Mormon proselyte, I proceed to lay them before you in detail.

Many years ago, the precise date I do not now recollect, a plain looking countryman called upon me with a letter from Dr. Samuel L. Mitchell requesting me to examine, and give my opinion upon, a certain paper, marked with various characters, which the Doctor confessed he could not decypher, and which the bearer of the note was very anxious to have explained. A very brief examination of the paper convinced me that it was a mere hoax, and a very clumsy one too. The characters were arranged in columns, like the Chinese mode of writing, and presented the most singular medley that I ever beheld. Greek, Hebrew and all sorts of letters, more or less distorted, either through unskilfulness or from actual design, were intermingled with sundry delineations of half moons, stars, and other natural objects, and the whole ended in a rude representation of the Mexican zodiac. The conclusion was irresistible, that some cunning fellow had prepared the paper in question for the purpose of imposing upon the countryman who brought it, and I told the man so without any hesitation. He then proceeded to give me the history of the whole affair, which convinced me that he had fallen into the hands of some sharper, while it left me in great astonishment at his simplicity.

The countryman told me that a gold book had been recently dug up in the western or northern part (I forget which), of our state, and he described this book as consisting of many gold plates, like leaves, secured by a gold wire passing through the edges of each, just as the leaves of a book are sewed together, and presented in this way the appearance of a volume. Each plate, according to him, was inscribed with unknown characters, and the paper which he handed me, a transcript of one of these pages. On my asking him by whom the copy was made, he gravely stated, that along with the golden book there had been dug up a very large pair of spectacles! so large in fact that if a man were to hold them in front of his face, his two eyes would merely look through one of the glasses, and the remaining part of the spectacles would project a considerable distance sideways! These spectacles possessed, it seems a very valuable property, of enabling any one who looked through them, (or rather through one of the lenses,) not only to decypher the characters on the plates, but also to comprehend their exact meaning, and be able to translate them!! My informant assured me that this curious property of the spectacles had been actually tested, and found to be true. A young man, it seems, had been placed in the garret of a farm-house, with a curtain before him, and having fastened the spectacles to his head, had read several pages in the golden book, and communicated their contents in writing to certain persons stationed on the outside of the curtain. He had also copied off one page of the book in the original character, which he had in like manner handed over to those who were separated from him by the curtain, and this copy was the paper which the countryman had brought with him. As the golden book was said to contain very great truths, and most important revelations of a religious nature, a strong desire had been expressed by several persons in the countryman's neighbourhood, to have the whole work translated and published. A proposition had accordingly been made to my informant, to sell his farm, and apply the proceeds to the printing of the golden book, and the golden plates were to be left with him as security until he should be reimbursed by the sale of the work. To convince him more clearly that there was no risk whatever in the matter, and that the work was actually what it claimed to be, he was told to take the paper, which purported to be a copy of one of the pages of the book, to the city of New York, and submit it to the learned in that quarter, who would soon dispel all his doubts, and satisfy him as to the perfect safety of the investment. As Dr. Mitchell was our "Magnus Apollo" in those days, the man called first upon him; but the Doctor, evidently suspecting some trick, declined giving any opinion about the matter, and sent the countryman down to the college, to see, in all probability what the "learned pundits" in that place would make of the affair. On my telling the bearer of the paper that an attempt had been made to impose on him and defraud him of his property, he requested me to give him my opinion in writing about the paper which he had shown to me. I did so without hesitation, partly for the man's sake, and partly to let the individual "behind the curtain" see that his trick was discovered. The import of what I wrote was, as far as I can now recollect, simply this, that the marks in the paper appeared to be merely an imitation of various alphabetical characters, and had, in my opinion, no meaning at all connected with them. The countryman then took his leave, with many thanks, and with the express declaration that he would in no shape part with his farm, or embark in the speculation of printing the golden book.

The matter rested here for a considerable time, until one day, when I had ceased entirely to think of the countryman and his paper, this same individual, to my great surprise, paid me a second visit. He now brought with him a duodecimo volume, which he said was a translation into English of the "Golden Bible." He also stated, that notwithstanding his original determination not to sell his farm, he had been induced evidently to do so, and apply the money to the publication of the book, and had received the golden plates as a security for payment. He begged my acceptance of the volume, assuring me that it would be found extremely interesting, and that it was already "making great noise" in the upper part of the state. Suspecting now that some serious trick was on foot, and that my plain looking visitor might be in fact a very cunning fellow I declined his present, and merely contented myself with a slight examination of the volume while he stood by. The more I declined receiving it, however, the more urgent the man became in offering the book, until at last I told him plainly, that if he left the volume, as he said he intended to do, I should most assuredly throw it after him as he departed. I then asked him how he could be so foolish as to sell his farm and engage in this affair; and requested him to tell me if the plates were really of gold. In answer to this latter inquiry, he said, that he had never seen the plates themselves, which were carefully locked up in a trunk, but that he had the trunk in his possession. I advised him by all means to open the trunk and examine its contents, and if the plates proved to be of gold, which I did not believe at all, to sell them immediately. His reply was, that. if he opened the trunk, the "curse of heaven would descend upon him and his children.' "However," added he, "I will agree to open it, provided you take the 'curse of Heaven' upon yourself, for having advised me to the step." I told him I was perfectly willing to do so, and begged he would hasten home and examine the trunk, for he would find that he had been cheated. He promised to do as I recommended, and left me, taking his book with him. I have never seen him since.

Such is a plain statement of all I know respecting the Mormons. My impression now is, that the plain looking countryman was none other than the prophet Smith himself, who assumed an appearance of great simplicity in order to entrap me, if possible, into some recommendation of his book. That the prophet aided me by his inspiration, in interpreting the volume, is only one of the many amusing falsehoods which the Mormonites utter relative to my participation in their doctrines. Of these doctrines I know nothing whatever, nor have I ever heard a single discourse from any of their preachers, although I have often felt a strong curiosity to become an auditor, since my friends tell me that they frequently name me in their sermons, and even go so far as to say that I am alluded to in the prophecies of Scripture!

If what I have here written shall prove of any service in opening the eyes of some of their deluded followers to the real designs of those who profess to be the apostles of Mormonism, it will afford me satisfaction equalled, I have no doubt, only by that which you yourself will feel on this subject.

I remain, very respectfully and truly, your friend,
CHAS. ANTHON.
Rev. Dr. Coit, New Rochelle, N. Y.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _DrW »

Chap,

Thanks for posting these letters with some observations. These certainly provides some context for JSJr's "Caractors" and indicate something important about Martin Harris' less than sterling character as well.

Anthon's description in the letter of Joseph Smith's followers as "deluded" is coming someone who should know.
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Re: Reformed Egyptian = Latin Short Hand? Celestial version

Post by _Buffalo »

Nevo wrote:It should be remembered that Stout hand-picked his Tironian notae from not one, but two large collections of notae—Ulrich Friedrich Kopp's Paleographia critica and Emile Chatelain's Introduction à la Lecture des Notes Tironiennes—containing hundreds of examples to choose from. According to Wikipedia, the system has something in the neighborhood of 13,000 signs. Out of 13,000 signs, one would expect to find at least a few points of contact, whether there was an actual connection or not.


If true, that would indeed appear to undermine the case for the Tironian notes. Unless of course those characters were also the same ones that appeared in the Detroit Manuscript, which Joseph Smith could have credibly had access to due to connections with his uncle. It would appear that more information is needed here.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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