Apostles...witnesses of what exactly?

[_Nightlion]

Okay, then here is a test.
Wade would never walk away having once derailed a thread and not derail it again to bury that which he feels is his obligation to bury........

i assure you, not Wade.
not to discount the discourse you have posted about what an Apostle "surely must be", but consider this:
D&C 107:23 and 35 (and 124:128)

D&C 18:27-28

http://eom.BYU.edu/index.php/Apostle

D&C 18:27-28
27 Yea, even twelve; and the Twelve shall be my disciples, and they shall take upon them my name; and the Twelve are they who shall desire to take upon them my name with full purpose of heart.
28 And if they desire to take upon them my name with full purpose of heart, they are called to go into all the world to preach my gospel unto every creature.

It would be silly to expect any man would or could fulfill the above expectation if they never came unto Christ to begin with and were visited of the Father with the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Yet the LDS Church is exceedingly ignorant in this regard and negligent to a fault to see to it that it is done correctly and with the expertise of proven competence.

The charge given to the original twelve by Oliver Cowdery said this:
. It is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for
yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth. . . .
“. . . Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand
upon you. . . .
History of the Church vol. 2:194-98

The apostolic revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost is detailed about Jesus of Nazareth.
The subsequent ordination under the hand of God is another event where he personally sends you forth. This can precede the revelation. Every true apostle will come to these events.

Those who lack these are not approved of God and will not bring forth fruit meet for the Father's kingdom. That is why after having so many apostles called in the more than 180 year of Mormonism there still lacks a proper Zion.

[_subgenius]

It would be silly to expect any man would or could fulfill the above expectation if they never came unto Christ to begin with and were visited of the Father with the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Yet the LDS Church is exceedingly ignorant in this regard and negligent to a fault to see to it that it is done correctly and with the expertise of proven competence.

you are confused. of course it would be silly "if they never came unto Christ", the scripture reference clearly states that in verse 27; your re-statement of the scripture serves what purpose?
Furthermore, what are offering by way of evidence that the Church is "negligent" in seeing that IT is "done correctly" and with "proven competence"?

Matthew 22:14
D&C 121:34-36

Those who lack these are not approved of God and will not bring forth fruit meet for the Father's kingdom. That is why after having so many apostles called in the more than 180 year of Mormonism there still lacks a proper Zion.

Agreed, but i am not sure why you consider this applicable to the LDS Church. A proper Zion?
The scriptures are fairly clear that there is nothing between sinners and eternal happiness, but their proud and unbelieving unwillingness. I believe that the "gathering" is underway as we speak and has not been a source of misery, but rather the opposite.
Is it your position that the Apostles are a "scourge"?

Matthew 23:37
D&C 84:54-60

[_jon]

I believe that the "gathering" is underway as we speak and has not been a source of misery, but rather the opposite.

Hi sub, please can you clarify what/who is being gathered and to where?

[_Phillip]

I ask because I was always taught that they were special witnesses of Jesus Christ himself.

And now I've just read this:
During the stake conference, Elder Bednar noted that while Apostles are ordained witnesses of the name of Jesus Christ throughout the world, they are not the only witnesses.
(article on LDS.org describing Bednars trip to England)

So I'm confused - is the terminology 'witnesses OF THE NAME of Jesus Christ' a significant change in how to describe Apostles?

In New Testament it gives the requirements for being a potential member of the 12 (doesn't apply to Paul since he has never been considered to have been one of the twelve apostles):

"So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us -- one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection." - Acts 1:21-22

When I was on my way out of the LDS church, I actually had someone try to tell me that because Peter thought Jesus would return in Peter's lifetime, Peter unknowingly gave a requirement for being part of the 12 that could never be fulfilled past the first generation of Christian believers. Unwittingly Peter laid the foundations for the Great Apostasy by leading subsequent Christians to think that the quorum of the 12 apostles was not a neccessary part of the Church. Hence the above scripture actually supports the LDS faith. And to think that the whole Great Apostasy could have been averted by a few clarifying words from Jesus to Peter!

[_subgenius]

I believe that the "gathering" is underway as we speak and has not been a source of misery, but rather the opposite.

Hi sub, please can you clarify what/who is being gathered and to where?

http://LDS.org/manual/gospel-principles ... l?lang=eng

[_jon]

Hi sub, so the 'who' is the House of Israel.

Now, what about the evidence that draws you to the conclusion that you see this happening?

[_Nightlion]

states that in verse 27; your re-statement of the scripture serves what purpose?
Furthermore, what are offering by way of evidence that the Church is "negligent" in seeing that IT is "done correctly" and with "proven competence"?

D&C 84:49-60
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.
50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Please note how I provide the actual text. You can please point out better than President Ezra Taft Benson did exactly how the LDS Church competently addresses this condemnation.
Oh, please use the council of the Brethren. That will be interesting.

Once you get this correct then we will speak to Zion.

[_subgenius]

Hi sub, so the 'who' is the House of Israel.

http://LDS.org/ensign/1991/01/of-the-ho ... l?lang=eng

Now, what about the evidence that draws you to the conclusion that you see this happening?[/quote]
http://LDS.org/manual/gospel-principles ... l?lang=eng

[_jon]

Hi sub, so the 'who' is the House of Israel.

http://LDS.org/ensign/1991/01/of-the-ho ... l?lang=eng

Now, what about the evidence that draws you to the conclusion that you see this happening?

http://LDS.org/manual/gospel-principles ... l?lang=eng[/quote]

LOL

Good one sub.

Seriously though, what actual evidence?
Mass migrations, mass baptisms, people learning Israeli, what?

[_subgenius]

...
Seriously though, what actual evidence?
Mass migrations, mass baptisms, people learning Israeli, what?

seriously...chapter 42