Adam and Eve?

[_paulfisher]

Well then, we believe the same as all other Christians believe, although it is neither what the Bible nor the Book of Moses say. Very strange...

Not exactly. See 2 Nephi 2 which gives details about Adam and Eve other christians don't have. Also, most other christians as far as I know, believe that eating the fruit was a mistake. However, the Bible tells us that this was part of the plan (1 Peter 1:19-20) because Christ was foreordained overcome the effects of the Fall which is what LDS believe.

Yes exactly. All Christians believe humanity was created in innocence incapable of sinning until they sinned. Then humanity supposedly "fell". An obvious contradiction and not found in the Scriptures. In fact God makes sure that those He gives eyes to see can read AND understand Gen 3:6 and 1Jn 2:16.

Eating the fruit WAS a mistake [a mistake is a sin] ALTHOUGH, both us Mormons and all other Christians have misunderstood this mistake differently.

Christians have been told by their shepherds [messengers of Satan according to Scripture] that God did NOT want Adam and Eve to eat this fruit and so this was the mistake. Us Mormons have been told by our shepherds that Adam and Eve knew BEFORE they ate this fruit that eating it was indeed part of the big Plan.

Both are wrong.

Adam and Eve did NOT know before they partook of the fruit that it was part of the big Plan. Yet God did indeed WANT them to partake of the fruit and so He created AND put the tree in the Garden and then commanded them NOT to eat from it and then had Satan tempt them. Yes, God is in full control in spite of what the shepherds of the world tell us.

[_just me]

Sounds like a trickster god.

[_bcspace]

But Joseph Smith did state that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.

He might have and I don't doubt many LDS currently believe the garden to have been located there. But what I'm saying is the verses used to reference this don't actually say that.

There's record of how he explained his understanding of Genesis and the location of Eden during a trip through Missouri in 1838:

"Shortly after his arrival Joseph rowed up the Grand River to Lyman Wight’s ferry to explore land on the north bank in Daviess County [Missouri]. On a high bluff overlooking the river someone in the party discovered the ruins of what seemed to be an altar and excitedly led the prophet to it. After examining it Joseph stood silent, his eyes sweeping over the prairie that rolled away beneath him....The glory of the scene made Joseph heady as with new wine. 'This is the valley of God in which Adam blessed his children,' he said, 'and upon this very altar Adam himself offered up sacrifices to Jehovah....we will lay out a city which shall be called Adam-ondi-Ahman. Here Adam, the Ancient of Days, shall come to visit his people....' "

Nothing about the garden being in Missouri. Plus no reference given for this or your other quotes (needed to determine officiality).

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie gives this information about the location of the Garden of Eden:
"ADAM-ONDI-AHMAN

Adam was the first man of all men; Ahman is one of the names by which God was known to Adam. Adam-ondi-Ahman, a name carried over from the pure Adamic language into English, is one for which we have not been given a revealed, literal translation. As near as we can judge -- and this view comes down from the early brethren who associated with the Prophet Joseph Smith, who was the first one to use the name in this dispensation -- Adam-ondi-Ahman means the place or land of God where Adam dwelt.

Nothing about the Garden being in Missouri here either plus again, no refernece given.

Apparently the area included was a large one; at least, the revelations speak of the land, the valley, and the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman. They tell us that Christ himself "established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman" (D. & C. 78:15-16), and that it included the place now known as Spring Hill, Daviess County, Missouri. (D. & C. 116.)"

Yes. These are the verse sets I was referring to (also D&C 107:53-56). However, notice that none of them claim the garden to be in Missouri. Adam-ondi-Ahman, the place where Adam spoke to his posterity three years before his death is in Missouri, yes. But what about the garden?

I personally see no problems with the garden being in Missouri or the Middle East, by the way.

[_bcspace]

Adam and Eve did NOT know before they partook of the fruit that it was part of the big Plan.

Sure they did. Satan told them a truth which they recognized. Satan also lied to them (saying they would not die)

Yet God did indeed WANT them to partake of the fruit and so He created AND put the tree in the Garden and then commanded them NOT to eat from it and then had Satan tempt them. Yes, God is in full control in spite of what the shepherds of the world tell us.

LDS believe this and you just contradicted everything you previously stated.

[_Madison54]

Hey BC...
I admit I had that coming (about not referencing everything)! Sorry about that! I am usually a "reference freak" but I was in a hurry and just took those quotes from a doc I had saved (and yes, I did notice that at least that first quote had no reference....and yes, it bothered me.....so I should have left it out).

But, there is really no doubt that Joseph Smith believed and stated that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri (or do you not agree?).

The other quotes are from McConkie's Mormon Doctrine (p. 19) and Wilford Woodruff's journal (I can give you a link to that if you'd like).

The church even has a temple planned for Adam-Ondi-Ahman:
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/adamondiahman/

Here's a website with more quotes and references for you about this:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/adam_ond.shtml

(And....again, I'm sorry about the sloppy referencing in my earlier post!!)

[_bcspace]

But, there is really no doubt that Joseph Smith believed and stated that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri (or do you not agree?).

I don't know. The notion does exist in the Church. Can you find something published by the Church on that? Relative to the Church, it doesn't matter if Joseph Smith believed it; what matters is if such a belief is published in a work by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That's because all 15 prophets and apostles must agree on what is doctrine and that's because D&C 107 establishes that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are equal in authority.

The other quotes are from McConkie's Mormon Doctrine (p. 19) and Wilford Woodruff's journal (I can give you a link to that if you'd like).

Neither is published by the Church. Therefore, none of their contents can be considered doctrine unless you can also find such contents in a work published by the Church.

Here's a website with more quotes and references for you about this:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/adam_ond.shtml

This one seemed to contain only one reference that can be considered doctrinal by the Church's standards and it seems inconclusive:

Some confusion exists as the interrelationship between Adam-ondi-Ahman and the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden is sometimes referred to as Adam-ondi-Ahman. James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 474, fn. 3:

I did not look at the other site.

My contention though is not about whether or not the garden being in Missouri is doctrinal. I'm merely saying that the scriptures used to reference this do not actually state that the garden is in Missouri. Would you not agree?

[_Madison54]

I did not look at the other site.

You should take a look....it's interesting to read through what the church has planned for a temple at Adam-ondi-Ahman. I find that there is a lot of confusion over what the church teaches will transpire there and this explains some of that.

It also states on this site: "The valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman was revealed to Joseph Smith to be the place where Adam blessed his posterity after being driven from the Garden of Eden."

Here's the link again:
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/adamondiahman/

As far as I know, this is a church website....is that what you believe too?

[Guest]

Adam and Eve did NOT know before they partook of the fruit that it was part of the big Plan.

Sure they did. Satan told them a truth which they recognized. Satan also lied to them (saying they would not die)

The Scriptures are clear that Adam and Eve did NOT know about the Plan of Salvation at that point and certainly did not know that they were suppose to disobey God and eat of the fruit. I posted the verses in a previous post.

Example: when God asked Adam "Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" If Adam knew that he was supposed to eat of it, he would have simply answered "Yes, of course I did", but instead he immediately blamed Eve.

The Scripture tells us why Adam ate the fruit: "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me,..." Adam was reminding God that He had given Eve to him to be WITH him. Once Adam knew that Eve had eaten the fruit, he did not want to take a chance that God would take Eve away from him because she had disobeyed Him. He figured he would also eat and that way no matter what, they would stay together.

Think about it, why would God go to all that trouble if Adam and Eve were supposed to already know the big Plan? Why command them NOT to eat the fruit? Why didn't God simply skip all that process and create Adam and Eve with a knowledge of good and evil from the get go? You may think because God needed them to sin, but God could have caused them to sin in a million other ways with a million other commandments.

Why all this elaborate process and Scriptural story telling for our learning? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Ti 3:16) It is so we will NOT be deceived by the messengers of Satan. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." (2Co 11:13)

If Eve knew she was supposed to eat of this fruit why does she blame the serpent? Do you think that is a mistranslation? Nope. Paul also reminds us: "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." [2Co 11:3)

There's your proof and second witness that Adam and Eve did NOT know prior to eating the fruit about the Plan of Salvation.

I have learned that when reading the Scriptures you MUST pay attention to ALL the words if you want the truth.

Yet God did indeed WANT them to partake of the fruit and so He created AND put the tree in the Garden and then commanded them NOT to eat from it and then had Satan tempt them. Yes, God is in full control in spite of what the shepherds of the world tell us.

LDS believe this and you just contradicted everything you previously stated.

Yes, we believe that this was God's plan although we're misguided about Adam and Eve's foreknowledge of the big Plan. Also, we nor all other Christians believe that God is in FULL control.

When making a statement such as this you need to give exact reference to my contradiction(s) or don't make the statement at all. A blank statement like this can be deceitful to others.

[_Themis]

but you get the "sinless", correct?

Not regarding the image of God. I would not interpret it to be sinless or sinful.

[_bcspace]

It also states on this site: "The valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman was revealed to Joseph Smith to be the place where Adam blessed his posterity after being driven from the Garden of Eden."

Sure. But that does not state the location of garden was in Missouri.