Michael Ash - Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_Drifting]

[This is why I am asking you or anyone else that wants to answer how an investigator can know that the HG is actually communicating that the Book of Mormon or LDS church is true.

This is what the Preach My Gospel manual (which missionaries use) has to say on this subject.

A person is capable of receiving spiritual guidance before being baptized and confirmed.
This spiritual influence begins with the Light of Christ, which “is given to every man, that he may know good from evil” (Moroni 7:16; see also verses 14–19).
“The light of Christ is just what the words imply: enlightenment, knowledge, and an uplifting, ennobling, persevering influence that comes upon mankind because of Jesus Christ. . . .

[_Franktalk]

No one asked for proof. What you do not understand is what the LDS church teaches on the matter. I suspect that since you are a member, that you are a convert to the church. The church teaches that one does not have to have faith in the church or the Book of Mormon in order to ask God if it is true. It says if you ask with a sincere heart and real intent that the HG will confirm it. This is why I am asking you or anyone else that wants to answer how an investigator can know that the HG is actually communicating that the Book of Mormon or LDS church is true.

Now I see why all of the questions. They were set in order to arrive at this place. That is fine. I have stated that there is a path to a spirit filled life. I believe that spiritual communication can happen to all those who seek it. I have also said that the Holy Spirit will at times communicate with someone before they learn to walk in the spirit. When it comes to someone asking God about the Book of Mormon the same rules apply. If you don't believe in God and embrace the world then asking a question of God as an intellectual process will not get results. God may make an exception. Scripture is filled with exceptions.

[_Drifting]

A thought of the brain is not a desire of the heart.

What?

The heart doesn't have desire - it pumps blood.
You will find that human desires stem from inbuilt characteristics that have developed over eons primarily driven by the need to survive.

"And love is just our way of looking out for ourselves when we don't want to live alone..." keane - pretend that you're alone.

Faith in a higher power is a response to a fear of death.

[_Themis]

Now I see why all of the questions. They were set in order to arrive at this place. That is fine. I have stated that there is a path to a spirit filled life. I believe that spiritual communication can happen to all those who seek it. I have also said that the Holy Spirit will at times communicate with someone before they learn to walk in the spirit. When it comes to someone asking God about the Book of Mormon the same rules apply. If you don't believe in God and embrace the world then asking a question of God as an intellectual process will not get results. God may make an exception. Scripture is filled with exceptions.

All the questions? There has really only been one, and you still have avioded it. If the spirit can communicate before they learn to walk in the spirit, how will they know that it is the spirit communicating to them. This is a simple question I have had to repeat multiple times and not gotten a response from you yet. That's fine if you don't want to, but you did respond to my question to Jo.

[_SteelHead]

I do not know the exact mechanics but I know when I am visited by the same spirit. A new spirit is just like any stranger. In the case of spirits they need to be tested. John tells us how to do that.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby, know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I don't know the details of the Joseph Smith incident. If indeed it was a man then we all can be fooled.

This test can not be performed on people. They have a wall of flesh between you and them. The flesh can even lie about Christ.

The test is classical circular reasoning.

Both circular and demonstrably contradicts other scripture. Where the devils (Legion) testify that Jesus in the flesh is the son of God.


Let me break down this circle for you.

Us -> you are basing your world view on a feeling. How do you know your feeling is more valid than anyone else's feeling to the contrary?

You -> Because the feeling tells me so.

See the circle?

There are other Christian religions that testify that Jesus is God in flesh, the Christ, the son of the Living God. God told Joseph that none were correct, and that their creeds were an abomination. The adherents of these faiths profess that Jesus is the Christ and by the scriptures you cite in John, can not be of the anti-christ. And yet LDSdom teaches that the other churches are the great whore of all the earth, the church of the devil. Surely both positions can not be correct?

Yet, the devils testify of Christ. Devils that aren't anti-Christ? Can this be? My head asplode!!!!

[_Franktalk]

All the questions? There has really only been one, and you still have avioded it. If the spirit can communicate before they learn to walk in the spirit, how will they know that it is the spirit communicating to them. This is a simple question I have had to repeat multiple times and not gotten a response from you yet. That's fine if you don't want to, but you did respond to my question to Jo.

It is apparent to me that you must already have the answer you seek. Why are you trying to get me to answer a question many times until I get close to what you are looking for? If indeed you think I have provided no answer that is fine. I have done my best to do so. Maybe you need to ask others and they can help you since it appears I can't.

[_Morley]

I'm trying to understand. You're saying to get faith, you have to have faith?

This may be all fun and games here on this thread. But this subject is critical to someone who seeks God. You are without excuse not to have a starting point to seek God and know that there is a God.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But if pride or the love of the world blinds you then you will not see the power of God in the creation. You will instead see nature as your God. You will see natural forces make the creation. If you embrace the creation as your God then God will respect your choice. If you have no desire to seek God He will not hide from you, but you will never find Him. One can not fool God.

If someone says they seek God yet they love the world then they truly are not seeking. A thought of the brain is not a desire of the heart.

This is a wall of words that doesn't address the question.

[_Themis]

It is apparent to me that you must already have the answer you seek. Why are you trying to get me to answer a question many times until I get close to what you are looking for? If indeed you think I have provided no answer that is fine. I have done my best to do so. Maybe you need to ask others and they can help you since it appears I can't.

I have tried to get you to answer the question just once. How does one discern that the HG is communicating to them? You have yet to describe what the experience will be like for the investigator to understand they are communicating with the HG. I do know what the church teaches about it, but based on your posts I do not think you understand LDS doctrine and teachings very well. I suspect this is due to you probably being a more recent convert.

[Guest]

Both circular and demonstrably contradicts other scripture. Where the devils (Legion) testify that Jesus in the flesh is the son of God.

Maybe a lesson on the content of scripture can help you. When our spirits come to this earth we are shielded from the knowledge and experiences that we had before coming here. So all those who we knew before coming in the flesh are now strangers. So Christ would be a stranger and by deed and spiritual communication we could see who He was or maybe not. Most did not see Christ as the Messiah and the message was given but mostly fell on deaf ears. Devils or demons have not come to the earth in the flesh. They know of their pre-existence and know all those that they knew in the spirit world. They know Christ. They also know Satan. So your comment is born of ignorance of scripture. But I am sure you need more than this explanation. So let me cover more details for you.

So what did Legion say:

Mark 5:6-7
6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

and

Luke 8:28
28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

I don't see where Legion said that Christ had come in the flesh. But of course this is a detail that you must have assumed by the actions of Legion.

Now let us consider just who were the players in this conversation. Legion was speaking to Christ. Would you please show me in scripture where any evil spirit lied directly to the face of God? I do not recall any. But I know of many times in scripture that an evil spirit has lied to man. So from my view an evil spirit can not lie to God face to face. So we have an apples and oranges analysis going on. But let us go further shall we. I used 1John to show the testing of spirits. Let me show the lines again.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Let ask you a question. Was John writing to Christ or to man? I think he was writing to man.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I think this makes it clear that John was writing to men. So when men are confronted by a spirit if that spirit confesseth that Jesus came in the flesh then we can rest assured that they have come from God. I hope this clears up your confusion but if not please feel free to ask more questions.

[_Franktalk]

I have tried to get you to answer the question just once. How does one discern that the HG is communicating to them? You have yet to describe what the experience will be like for the investigator to understand they are communicating with the HG. I do know what the church teaches about it, but based on your posts I do not think you understand LDS doctrine and teachings very well. I suspect this is due to you probably being a more recent convert.

Why would I need to learn from the church what I have experienced first hand?