Michael Ash - Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_harmony]

Why would I need to learn from the church what I have experienced first hand?

Are you related to Nightlion?

[_Themis]

I have tried to get you to answer the question just once. How does one discern that the HG is communicating to them? You have yet to describe what the experience will be like for the investigator to understand they are communicating with the HG. I do know what the church teaches about it, but based on your posts I do not think you understand LDS doctrine and teachings very well. I suspect this is due to you probably being a more recent convert.

Why would I need to learn from the church what I have experienced first hand?

Yet you are unable to explain how one can discern the spirit.

[_SteelHead]

Maybe a lesson on the content of scripture can help you. When our spirits come to this earth we are shielded from the knowledge and experiences that we had before coming here. So all those who we knew before coming in the flesh are now strangers. So Christ would be a stranger and by deed and spiritual communication we could see who He was or maybe not. Most did not see Christ as the Messiah and the message was given but mostly fell on deaf ears. Devils or demons have not come to the earth in the flesh. They know of their pre-existence and know all those that they knew in the spirit world. They know Christ. They also know Satan. So your comment is born of ignorance of scripture. But I am sure you need more than this explanation. So let me cover more details for you.

Sorry Frank but I know the context and content of these scriptures quite well. I understand that according to LDS doctrine the devils and demons did not pass through the veil and have a perfect knowledge of Christ. And yet, oddly enough, they still "testify of Christ."

James 2:19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

(See I can quote scripture too..... I guess the years of religious instruction, ces pre-service and classroom teaching were good for something after all.)

So what did Legion say:

Mark 5:6-7
6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

and

Luke 8:28
28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

I don't see where Legion said that Christ had come in the flesh. But of course this is a detail that you must have assumed by the actions of Legion.

It is self evident.... as Christ is there in the flesh. Is he not? Do they need to state it? Jesus in the flesh is there, and they testify that he is the son of god. Hence they testify that Jesus is come in the flesh.

Now let us consider just who were the players in this conversation. Legion was speaking to Christ. Would you please show me in scripture where any evil spirit lied directly to the face of God? I do not recall any.

Hmmm..
Matt 4:1-10

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

I think there is/are falsehood(s) in there somewhere.

But I know of many times in scripture that an evil spirit has lied to man. So from my view an evil spirit can not lie to God face to face. So we have an apples and oranges analysis going on. But let us go further shall we. I used 1John to show the testing of spirits. Let me show the lines again.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Let ask you a question. Was John writing to Christ or to man? I think he was writing to man.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I think this makes it clear that John was writing to men. So when men are confronted by a spirit if that spirit confesseth that Jesus came in the flesh then we can rest assured that they have come from God. I hope this clears up your confusion but if not please feel free to ask more questions.

I'm glad you can mentally support your arguments in areas where there is no scriptural basis.

To quote John 1:2-3

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Where in John does it qualify your assertion? Where does it say "except for devils in the presence of divinity"? I find it no where in John. In fact the word used is "every", it does not qualify whom the devils address. It does state that: "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." & "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God."

2 Peter 1:20

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

And yet you are all over the personal interpretation, qualifying these verses. Can you support your claims? With scripture and not conjecture?

[_Drifting]

The First Presidency said: “When….inspiration conveys something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of constituted authorities, Latter-Day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear….Anything at discord with that which comes from God through the head of the Church is not to be received as authoritative or reliable” (Messages of the 1st Presidency, [1965-75] 4:285)

So it's clear then. In summary if you get a feeling that agrees with the Church and it's authorities then that's from God.

Hmmm...

That sounds an awful lot like...

"If the spirit agrees with what we tell you then it's right.
But if the spirit disagrees with what we tell you then it's not the spirit."


Isn't there a phrase to describe this type of thing...?

[_SteelHead]

Isn't there a phrase to describe this type of thing...?

I'll take "self serving circular pronouncements" for $200 Alex.

[_Franktalk]

Are you related to Nightlion?

We are to have a personal relationship with God. To love God is to have that personal relationship. Why are you attempting to insert the church between me and God? This is what the apostate church did and it did not work out to well for them. The members of the Church are to test the leaders of the Church using the Holy Spirit as their witness. If the members do not then the Church will drift towards the desires of men. The Church will ebb and flow and will be brought back on course if the members love God and follow His commandments. I have faith that this is true.

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way” ( Discourses of Brigham Young, 135).

It would appear that Brigham Young and I share a fear and a desire. We both desire the Church to do well and follow the path that God has laid out for the Church. And we both fear that the members will blindly follow the leaders and not inquire of the Lord. The Church has at its foundations the Holy Ghost. The Church is the members not the institution.

[_Franktalk]

And yet you are all over the personal interpretation, qualifying these verses. Can you support your claims? With scripture and not conjecture?

Feel free to interpret scripture any way you wish. If you don't understand scripture the way I do then we just disagree. Our disagreement is an example of why scripture is a stumbling block for many. It is the Holy Spirit that will lead to all truth. Since man is not able to read the message as intended by God then we must rely on spiritual messages to arrive at truth.

[_SteelHead]

And yet you are all over the personal interpretation, qualifying these verses. Can you support your claims? With scripture and not conjecture?

Feel free to interpret scripture any way you wish. If you don't understand scripture the way I do then we just disagree. Our disagreement is an example of why scripture is a stumbling block for many. It is the Holy Spirit that will lead to all truth. Since man is not able to read the message as intended by God then we must rely on spiritual messages to arrive at truth.

Well did your assertion prove true or false. Can evil spirits lie to god?

Jesus is god in the flesh -> Satan lies to Jesus (he by your own assertion knows full well that Jesus is the son of god, and by saying "if thou be the son of God" he is being dishonest) -> Evil spirits can lie to god.

Ergo your assertion is false. Did the spirit testify to you of the truthfulness of your previous assertion?

[_Franktalk]

The First Presidency said: “When….inspiration conveys something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of constituted authorities, Latter-Day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear….Anything at discord with that which comes from God through the head of the Church is not to be received as authoritative or reliable” (Messages of the 1st Presidency, [1965-75] 4:285)

So it's clear then. In summary if you get a feeling that agrees with the Church and it's authorities then that's from God.

Hmmm...

That sounds an awful lot like...

"If the spirit agrees with what we tell you then it's right.
But if the spirit disagrees with what we tell you then it's not the spirit."


Isn't there a phrase to describe this type of thing...?

I would like to comment on this subject. But before I do I think it would be fair to include the entire quote and also provide a link to the entire talk given in 1913.

http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 94610aRCRD

“When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration, convey something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities, Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear. Also, they should understand that directions for the guidance of the Church will come, by revelation, through the head. All faithful members are entitled to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for themselves, their families, and for those over whom they are appointed and ordained to preside. But anything at discord with that which comes from God through the head of the Church is not to be received as authoritative or reliable” ( Improvement Era, Sept. 1913, 1148).

I think it is important that I point out the sentence that was left out of your quote.

"Also, they should understand that directions for the guidance of the Church will come, by revelation, through the head."

And further I will like to add a paragraph that precedes this and sets a frame work for what followed.

"The presiding quorums of the Church will always be composed of such men, they will be chosen in such manner, that the Saints can be assured that solid wisdom, righteousness, and conscientious adherence to duty, will characterize the policy of those who are entrusted with the administration of the affairs of the Church."

So for me what Joseph F. Smith said concerned the administration of the Church. This would make sense because we are told that truth may come from many sources. But it appears that administration revelations of the Church will come from the head of the Church. I see no problem with this.

[_Franktalk]

Where in John does it qualify your assertion? Where does it say "except for devils in the presence of divinity"? I find it no where in John. In fact the word used is "every", it does not qualify whom the devils address. It does state that: "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." & "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God."

And yet you are all over the personal interpretation, qualifying these verses. Can you support your claims? With scripture and not conjecture?

I believe in truth which comes from God. So when I read scripture I try and see all parts of scripture fit so that no part makes another false. If it is a lie then the Holy Spirit inspired a man to lie in scripture which I believe God would not do. So using this as my guide I see no conflict between what John wrote and what happened between Jesus and Legion. There are many parts of the Bible that only refer to one group or another. Sometimes it is spelled out and others you must see who was being talked to. Like when Jesus said that blindness was being placed on the Jews. This was a pretty sharp line. But when He says the righteous we may not have such a clear distinction of that line. Some of us define the righteous one way and someone else may define it another. Where you see me change scripture to fit my personal taste I likewise see your inability to see the bigger picture as a limiting factor in your interpretation. In both these cases we have used something in our own mind to overlay scripture. So we may both be wrong.

I try and use the love of God towards man as my guide and I also use the structure that God does not make a conflict in scripture. If I find a conflict then I assume I have something wrong and I go back and find out what I have wrong. Sometimes it takes a lot of time and effort to uncover what I have wrong but in the end I always do obtain what I feel is the proper interpretation. This works for me but many have their own ways of interpreting scripture. We are after all unique in our abilities and experiences. My guide to scripture comes from my trust of God. I trust Him to give me a message that is true and consistent. So far I have no reason not to trust Him.