Michael Ash - Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_kairos]

jo

i , and perhaps others here, would like to hear/read your personal conversion/re-birth story- what u were before the experience, what specifically happened/where/how, and what changed/is continuing to change even now.

thanx
k

[_Corpsegrinder]

jo1952 wrote:

So far, you and I do not seem to be reading each other very well....sigh. OTOH, if we had the benefit of speaking in person, we would become good friends.

That may very well be true.

Here’s where I’m coming from: I'm extremely skeptical and leery toward people who publically proclaim an intimacy with or “continual communication” with the Holy Ghost.

I consider such people to be potentially very dangerous.

jo1952 wrote:

by the way, a brain surgeon's education does not begin in the surgery room. It takes years of prior medical schooling to get them to the point of specializing in any type of surgery.

So…if a med student who was interested in brain surgery asked you about the Circle of Willis, you’d answer him with an impromptu lecture about why baptism is so important? Right?

[_Franktalk]

Is the solution: "the scriptures are just a bunch of self contradictory mythology" not simpler and more elegant than the olympic level mental gymnastics required to arrive at some sort of reconciliation for the plethora (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6E682C7Jj4) of contradictions?

There are plenty of problems with scripture if you wish to see them. If however you wish to see God's message and you do not consider God a liar then one can find an interpretation that allows God to love us and speak the truth. You see me doing mental gymnastics to come up with a way to make God tell the truth and not be some evil murderer. I think I am being reasonable. I have adjusted my thinking to accommodate what I see as God. It appears to me that you refuse to do this. It appears to me that you consider your view of scripture to be the only truth. It appears to me that you may place your opinion above any supernatural being you come across. Or maybe you don't consider scripture inspired at all. So if you think it came from man then your opinion carries equal weight. No matter what the reason is you appear to be unmovable. That is fine but please don't act like some argument will change your mind when in fact I don't find that to be the case. Please correct me if I am wrong. But if you do indeed say you are open to new ideas then let me know when was the last time you changed your view of scripture to accommodate God?

[_Corpsegrinder]

There are plenty of problems with scripture if you wish to see them. If however you wish to see God's message and you do not consider God a liar then one can find an interpretation that allows God to love us and speak the truth. You see me doing mental gymnastics to come up with a way to make God tell the truth and not be some evil murderer. I think I am being reasonable. I have adjusted my thinking to accommodate what I see as God. It appears to me that you refuse to do this. It appears to me that you consider your view of scripture to be the only truth. It appears to me that you may place your opinion above any supernatural being you come across. Or maybe you don't consider scripture inspired at all. So if you think it came from man then your opinion carries equal weight. No matter what the reason is you appear to be unmovable. That is fine but please don't act like some argument will change your mind when in fact I don't find that to be the case. Please correct me if I am wrong. But if you do indeed say you are open to new ideas then let me know when was the last time you changed your view of scripture to accommodate God?

The problem with this line of reasoning is the fact that it doesn’t distinguish Mormon scripture from any other metaphysical book that purports to answer important questions. For example…

There are plenty of problems with the Bhagavad Ghita if you wish to see them. If however you wish to see Krishna’s message and you do not consider Krishna a liar then one can find an interpretation that allows Krishna to love us and speak the truth. You see me doing mental gymnastics to come up with a way to make Krishna tell the truth and not be some evil murderer. I think I am being reasonable. I have adjusted my thinking to accommodate what I see as Krishna. It appears to me that you refuse to do this. It appears to me that you consider your view of the Bhagavad Ghita to be the only truth. It appears to me that you may place your opinion above any Avatar of Krishna you come across…

& etc. and so on.

[_Themis]

There are plenty of problems with scripture if you wish to see them. If however you wish to see God's message and you do not consider God a liar then one can find an interpretation that allows God to love us and speak the truth. You see me doing mental gymnastics to come up with a way to make God tell the truth and not be some evil murderer. I think I am being reasonable. I have adjusted my thinking to accommodate what I see as God. It appears to me that you refuse to do this. It appears to me that you consider your view of scripture to be the only truth. It appears to me that you may place your opinion above any supernatural being you come across. Or maybe you don't consider scripture inspired at all. So if you think it came from man then your opinion carries equal weight. No matter what the reason is you appear to be unmovable. That is fine but please don't act like some argument will change your mind when in fact I don't find that to be the case. Please correct me if I am wrong. But if you do indeed say you are open to new ideas then let me know when was the last time you changed your view of scripture to accommodate God?

You talk about being open but also admit you are not open, but will interpret what you believe to be scripture to fit what you want to believe. It's an easy game to do with what ever beliefs one wants.

[_Franktalk]

The problem with this line of reasoning is the fact that it doesn’t distinguish Mormon scripture from any other metaphysical book that purports to answer important questions.

I don't think there is an argument that would make the case one from another. It is not logic or reason that moves me to believe in scripture. It is the independent witness. I have never had a third party spirit witness to any other religion. Maybe you can find someone who declares that their religion has a witness but for me there is only one. If this is the way you find your beliefs by reason alone then it must be very difficult.

[_Franktalk]

You talk about being open but also admit you are not open, but will interpret what you believe to be scripture to fit what you want to believe. It's an easy game to do with what ever beliefs one wants.

I did not one day come to want to believe in a loving God. I may want a nice car or more sales for the business next year. But God is who God is. My personal wants have nothing to do with it. When I read the Gospel I understood God some what. But when I read John I became aware of the personal God and His character. Using that as my guide I have read the rest of scripture in that light. If John had not been clear as to who God was I would have been in the dark.

[_SteelHead]

Why view god through the lens of John as a loving god? Why not the god of vengeance and death of the Old Testament? The one that smites and is full of wrath?

He returns in the apocalypse of John full of wrath and smitings. So that lens seems at least as valid if not more so. Approach him with fear and tremblings.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Franktalk wrote:

I don't think there is an argument that would make the case one from another. It is not logic or reason that moves me to believe in scripture. It is the independent witness.

Yes, that's the nice thing about irrational phenomena--it can all be simultaneously true or simultaneously false no matter how contradictory or absurd. Mormonism, mainstreamstream Christianity, Islam, Scientology--they're all simultaneously true and yet simultaneously false.

Maybe you can find someone who declares that their religion has a witness...

I can and I have. Compared to the rest of the world, Mormonism is just another small, provincial sect in a world filled with small, provincial sects.

If this is the way you find your beliefs by reason alone then it must be very difficult.

Not at all, because I can accept that belief and reason are two entirely different things.

Belief is infinitely easy.

[_Themis]

I did not one day come to want to believe in a loving God. I may want a nice car or more sales for the business next year. But God is who God is. My personal wants have nothing to do with it. When I read the Gospel I understood God some what. But when I read John I became aware of the personal God and His character. Using that as my guide I have read the rest of scripture in that light. If John had not been clear as to who God was I would have been in the dark.

Your wants have a lot to do with how you interpret your experiences, particularly your spiritual expereinces.