Michael Ash - Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_jo1952]

Ahh the old dodge. Just remember, you can use this excuse in any religion, Christian or not.

Hi Themis,

Yes, I am using the sneaky dodge of quoting scripture to help explain my answer to your question about something contained in scripture. I should be hung by the neck until dead.

but you really haven't shared yet. :)

But I am using scripture in support of why it is I cannot teach you what has happened to me through my own personal experiencing of the Holy Ghost. It is this very problem which Paul is so good at explaining. When people get so caught up in and attached to the world, they deny the possibility that someone else can actually have a spiritual encounter with the Holy Ghost.

So you are saying then is that I have never experienced the HG in my entire life.

Absolutely not. I see you enjoy using the tactic of putting words in my mouth. I was answering this question, which you had asked of me. If you also wanted my opinion on whether or not I thought you had ever experienced the Holy Ghost, I would have addressed that question as well. Here is what you asked:,

Another words how does one become aware of the HG?

You mean that one will just know it is the HG, yet the church itself uses many words to describe the HG, even in scripture. Funny that you couldn't even teach what the church teaches on the matter.

I do not agree with you. The Church offers to members that they pray and study scripture. They also teach that it is only the Holy Ghost who teaches truth to our spirits. I believe that you are using false teaching in order to support your agenda. If you are having trouble in your relationship with God, you should be talking to Him about it, and not taking out your problems with Him on me.

This is a little telling.

Yes, it is. I have always been blessed with great love for God and for others. I have found great joy in this love my entire life which has helped me to get through tough times.

This would also be true for those whose interpretations closely match say JW, although more likely is that people get convinced by others of a particular religion of their interpretations, and many times think these were there interpretations all along.Funny how the brain and memory can work.

Everyone has their own personal and unique world view. That's just how the brain and memory do influence every single one of us. That said, I can honestly state that when I was reading and studying the Bible as a child, no one was teaching me any preconceptions about their own interpretations except that I was taught to live the Golden Rule - there was no theology taught in my home. My parents never read to me from the Bible; they never prayed that I am aware of. If they did, they did so in total privacy; so I never learned how to pray either from their telling me "how" to, or by seeing their example. These are my personal experiences; is there something "wrong" with them?

Now you are trying to use words to describe the experience. You could have just went there from the beginning. I asked this question to see if you or others could do it, and you failed.

Gosh, Themis, I didn't know this was a test. I thought you were asking me questions you sincerely wanted me to answer about my own personal experiences.

Even the description above doesn't have much detail to it, but I know what you mean since I have had similar experiences. I think the difference for many is not so much in the experiences itself, but in how they interpret it. Many members and non-members as well will interpret it as God/HG/Gia/Zeus/etc speaking to them. It usually has powerful sensations/feelings/thoughts/emotions with them causing them to attach very tightly their interpretations to the expereince. Many members also tend to be more cautious, realizing that it is also possible and even more likely that the experience can be produced internally.

I believe that people will experience God to the degree of understanding which God deems them ready to receive. So, when it IS the Holy Ghost whom God has directed to reveal some bit of truth, a person will know it; and good fruit will be born regardless of what denomination or world religion or non-religion they are a part of when they experience the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost witnesses Truth to the spirit; it is a Spirit to spirit communication which opens our mind's eye to the Kingdom of God, no matter what point we are at in our journey.

Now don't try to say you will know that it is not because I doubt you or I know just how much the body/brain can produce, or what it limits are.

Not a problem. I wasn't even thinking of going there.

Love,

jo

[_SteelHead]

Sorry Jo, but Joseph Smith taught that inspiration can come from one of three sources; internal, holy ghost, and Satan. By his own admission differentiating between the three can be very difficult, and even he was by his own admission misled. So while by the church's teaching, yes the holy ghost teaches truth, how can you be certain it is the holy ghost?

Research the Canadian Book of Mormon copy right incident.


Outside of that, what makes your manifestations of the spirit more reliable than your non Mormon neighbour's?

[_jo1952]

Sorry Jo, but Joseph Smith taught that inspiration can come from one of three sources; internal, holy ghost, and Satan. By his own admission differentiating between the three can be very difficult, and even he was by his own admission misled. So while by the church's teaching, yes the holy ghost teaches truth, how can you be certain it is the holy ghost?

Hi SteelHead,

I'm not sorry that Josepth Smith taught the above; he's very accurate. The above is also taught in the scriptures; though different words are used and different examples are given to explain the same thing which Joseph recapped. There are various degrees of witnessing which the Holy Ghost will reveal. The more familiar you become with the Holy Ghost as opposed to other sources, then the easier it becomes to identify; thus you will know. Those who are already familiar with the Holy Ghost will be able to recognize what he is talking about. The initial knowing of whether it is the Holy Ghost or not, is that He will confirm to you that Jesus is the Christ. As you become more learned with how the Holy Ghost is teaching you and guiding you, the more "aware" you will be of His influence. You will learn to discern the differences which Joseph was talking about. You will be able to identify with what Paul is talking about. I have already touched upon how the fruit of your experience also teaches you.

We will all go through our own learning experiences; but we will know when it is the Holy Ghost. Even in Joseph's admission that it can be difficult and sometimes a person can even be misled. Ultimately, however, you come to realize this has taken place; THUS YOU DO KNOW if it was the Holy Ghost. These are all things which need to be learned personally by each individual. Until you actually start experiencing the Holy Ghost there is no way you can identify with what I may say about it, what Joseph Smith may say about, what scripture says about it, etc. It is part of your personal journey and relationship with God. No one else can take your journey for you.

Outside of that, what makes your manifestations of the spirit more reliable than your non Mormon neighbour's?

As I just said, through my personal experiencing of the Holy Ghost, I know how to identify when it is the Holy Ghost who has revealed Truth to me. Since I am not my neighbor, I cannot know what the Holy Ghost has been teaching him. This is not a contest. We receive what Father thinks we are ready and able to have revealed to each of us as individuals. Since we are all at our own particular point in our journey, no two of us will ever be at the same point at the same time.

As far as reliability? I look at the fruit. If, as a result of someone's belief that the Holy Ghost has revealed Truth to them, that someone becomes contentious, or feels the need to insist that he is correct and another person is wrong, then this fruit indicates to me that what he received was not of God. When the Holy Ghost is the source of Truth, along with the Truth comes Light and Love and Joy and a desire to love others; not fight against them.

Love,

jo

[_Themis]

Hi Themis,

Yes, I am using the sneaky dodge of quoting scripture to help explain my answer to your question about something contained in scripture. I should be hung by the neck until dead.

Lets be honest now. This was your dodge

You are just not yet ready to hear it. This is why Jesus taught, "He that has ears, let him hear."

But I am using scripture in support of why it is I cannot teach you what has happened to me through my own personal experiencing of the Holy Ghost. It is this very problem which Paul is so good at explaining. When people get so caught up in and attached to the world, they deny the possibility that someone else can actually have a spiritual encounter with the Holy Ghost.

Again lets be honest. The question was about describing how one would know the HG was communicating to them, or another words to describe to expereince(not necessarily yours). This you failed to do. You may have talked about what you thought one had to do to get the expereince, but avioded answering the question which was about the expereince itself. It was only a recent post that barely gave a little description of one expereince.

Absolutely not. I see you enjoy using the tactic of putting words in my mouth. I was answering this question, which you had asked of me. If you also wanted my opinion on whether or not I thought you had ever experienced the Holy Ghost, I would have addressed that question as well. Here is what you asked:,

It was a logical inference based on your posts that one would know, and since I don't know, then I must not have had the expereince.

I do not agree with you. The Church offers to members that they pray and study scripture.

Never indicated that they didn't.

They also teach that it is only the Holy Ghost who teaches truth to our spirits.

Again, never indicated that they didn't.

I believe that you are using false teaching in order to support your agenda.

You have yet to show this. I said the church taught using many words to describe the expereince of what they thought the HG was, and some of those words come from LDS cannon. I would hope as a believing member you would already know this, but possibly not, since you have avioded answering my question.

If you are having trouble in your relationship with God, you should be talking to Him about it, and not taking out your problems with Him on me.

I am just having problems getting you or frank to answer a simple question. It has nothing to do with my relationship with any God. Don't worry I am not upset, and I don't think I have said anything nasty to you or others.

Everyone has their own personal and unique world view. That's just how the brain and memory do influence every single one of us. That said, I can honestly state that when I was reading and studying the Bible as a child, no one was teaching me any preconceptions about their own interpretations except that I was taught to live the Golden Rule - there was no theology taught in my home. My parents never read to me from the Bible; they never prayed that I am aware of. If they did, they did so in total privacy; so I never learned how to pray either from their telling me "how" to, or by seeing their example. These are my personal experiences; is there something "wrong" with them?

You are self deluding yourself if you think you have not been influenced by others on how to interpret things like your reading of the Bible. Most of it you probably are not even aware of. Others would be because they recognize that most if not all of our ideas are influenced by others. This does not mean we can't evaluate those ideas.

Gosh, Themis, I didn't know this was a test. I thought you were asking me questions you sincerely wanted me to answer about my own personal experiences.

I was sincerely interested to see if you or others could give new information, although with my extensive knowledge of the church, and being a believing active member for so long, I did not have any expectations that you could, and of course you didn't. It's not your fault though. :)

I believe that people will experience God to the degree of understanding which God deems them ready to receive. So, when it IS the Holy Ghost whom God has directed to reveal some bit of truth, a person will know it;

This backs up my earlier inference.

and good fruit will be born regardless of what denomination or world religion or non-religion they are a part of when they experience the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost witnesses Truth to the spirit; it is a Spirit to spirit communication which opens our mind's eye to the Kingdom of God, no matter what point we are at in our journey.

And yet there is so much disagreement about what the HG is saying, even within the LDS religion. Not very reliable.

Not a problem. I wasn't even thinking of going there.

but it is an important point about knowing something, or thinking you do based on an internal expereince.

[_Themis]

I can only tell my side of any story based on what I see as the story. Others may see something completely different.

So you feel it is ok to tell your story, but are confused if others who may not believe some LDS claims want to tell their story.

I am always confused when some one says the Bible is filled with errors and it is the work of man. Then that same person hangs around on religious forums in order to argue about things they confess are worthless.

I don't think many, if any, have said the Bible is worthless, even if they think it does not come from divine sources. I think it has value as history, and many teaching have value even if not unique to the Bible or Christianity.

I guess they are trying to save people from a life that is wasted.

I don't think most would think wasted, but that maybe better off. I also don't think most are that worried about it. At least I don't see them out knocking on peoples doors. :)

But what alternate life do they offer? They offer a chance to worship at the altar of man?

That would be incorrect, but I can see why some religious people might think so.

Or better yet a select set of men who set the rules for science?

This to is incorrect. Maybe you could try and back it up. There are plenty of sets of men making up the rules for religious groups including the LDS.

If this is the alternate belief I can see why they are not successful.

Again you are mistaken. There is not a sets of beliefs non-religious are asking you to believe, only that some of the beliefs you currently hold may not be accurate. When it comes to this many non-religious and religious are having success. How many less people believe in a young earth and global flood compared to 50 years ago?

[_Themis]

As I just said, through my personal experiencing of the Holy Ghost, I know how to identify when it is the Holy Ghost who has revealed Truth to me.

I realize you think you know, but it misses the point of Joseph's story about eh Book of Mormon copyright. Even after much claimed experience with the HG doing supposedly miraculous things, he still had to come up with why he couldn't get an accurate revelation from God. Saying you know is not likely to be accurate if one who should have more expereince then you cannot know, and couldn't tell the difference. Maybe it was Satan that told him to marry other women behind Emma back, and to marry other men's wives. At least it would be better then him mistaking it coming from himself. :)

As far as reliability? I look at the fruit. If, as a result of someone's belief that the Holy Ghost has revealed Truth to them, that someone becomes contentious, or feels the need to insist that he is correct and another person is wrong, then this fruit indicates to me that what he received was not of God.

I have not insisted that I am correct, although you have. So are you going to conclude you are wrong based on your fruit of insisting you are correct and others wrong.

Now could you elaborate on what the fruit of reliability is? I don't mean the fruit of insisting one is right since that would not be a fruit of reliability you are referring to, and you don't think it would be from God.

When the Holy Ghost is the source of Truth, along with the Truth comes Light and Love and Joy and a desire to love others; not fight against them.

Is this the fruit of reliability. If it is then it is not evidence for LDS truth claims, since it is independent of religion. by the way I am not fighting against you, only disagreeing with some of your positions. Not necessarily the same thing.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Jo wrote:

Actually those are your words, not mine.

Of course they're my words. Hence the absence of quotes. Hence the absence of a quote box. Hence the presence of a qualifying "according to jo" (notice the quote marks; they mean I'm quoting someone, namely myself).

Jo wrote:

The questions I asked Emily were so that I could understand where she was coming from.

All the better to "straighten" her out, right? That is, after all, what you're here for, right?

Jo wrote:

You do enjoy using anti-LDS tactics against other LDS, even though your claim is that you are not doing so.

Asking you to answer specific questions is an "anti-LDS" tactic?

Asking you to comment on specific examples is an "anti-LDS" tactic?

Scolding you when you avoid answering said questions and examples is an "anti-LDS" tactic?

Be careful Jo, you’re getting perilously close to saying anything that disagrees with you is an “anti-LDS” tactic.

Jo wrote:

It has been my experience that people's actions speak louder than their words. Actions speak what is in the heart.

What specific "actions" are you accusing me of? If you uave a specific accusation to make, then you need to spit it out. No subtexts or wordgames, please.

Jo wrote:

If you are this disillusioned with the LDS Church, perhaps you would be happier in some other denomination, and find the comfort and peace you are seeking.

Yes, I could leave. Or, I could exercise ownership and responsibility over the religion that’s been part of my life for as long as I can remember and agitate from within for meaningful reforms.

Jo wrote:

The contention you manifest is not of God.

From the Oxford English Dictionary:
contention noun 1. heated disagreement. 2. an assertion. IDIOMS - in contention having a good chance of success in a contest.

Nothing on this thread even comes close to what a reasonable person would describe as "heated disagreement." It's a lot closer to what I would describe as "detailed, dispassionate scrutiny."

So perhaps you'll consider moderating your language when, in the future, you're moved to publicly declare what is and is not "of God."

Jo wrote:

I do not know of anyone who has had "continual communication" with the Holy Ghost.

On the contrary, “continual communication with the Holy Ghost” is your phrase, not mine. You used it in your first response in this thread:

Hi Stormy Waters,

My take is that Level B is from the perspective of the anti-Mormon. Therein is where the "evil, false and chaotic" is born. This does not equate into the "evil, false, and chaotic" to be accurate or true.

Since it is the Holy Ghost who is the witness of Truth on the earth (and this is NOT an original LDS belief, but is rather first taught in the New Testament), the Church appropriately teaches investigators and members HOW to be able to discern the Holy Ghost and learn how to eliminate the other noise we are all bombarded with while we are in the physical world. I have known no other religion which works as diligently as the LDS Church does on teaching how to recognize and to communicate with God through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Once an individual achieves this type of continual communication with the Holy Ghost (regardless of whether they are LDS or of any other religious persuasion), then nothing that man offers through their own interpretation of scripture or man's personal failings will have the same effect or ability to cause a person to lose their faith in God.

In other words, the Church teaches it members (including you) how to be in “continual communication with the Holy Ghost” (again, your words, not mine).

Or, have you changed your mind and are now claiming that you have not been taught how to be in “continual communication with the Holy Ghost”?

Jo wrote:

Aside from that, why are you extremely skeptical and leery toward those who have claimed so? Why do you consider these people to be potentially very dangerous?

Are you saying you’ve never heard of modern-day polygamy?

Go find some members of the Kingston Clan or some FLDS and ask them to tell you about “The Principal”. Modern Day polygamy is but on example of the damage that can be caused by people (like you) who claim to be in “continual communication with the Holy Ghost.”

Jo wrote:

I do not understand why you are asking such bizarre questions. Do you?

Okay, I’ll rephrase this particular question. Maybe you’ll find this version a bit less taxing:

If an investigator asked you about Brother Joseph’s tryst with Fanny Alger, would you respond by telling him how the concept of eternal marriage brought added joy and happiness to Joseph’s marriage with Emma?

Does that make it easy enough for you?

[_Corpsegrinder]

Again lets be honest. The question was about describing how one would know the HG was communicating to them, or another words to describe to expereince(not necessarily yours). This you failed to do. You may have talked about what you thought one had to do to get the expereince, but avioded answering the question which was about the expereince itself. It was only a recent post that barely gave a little description of one expereince.

Exactly. What some people seem incapable of understanding is that their unwillingness to answer certain questions for the purpose of continuing a pre-existing misconception constitutes a lie of omission.

People of this mindset deflect uncomfortable questions by:

*ignoring them,

*labeling them “anti-LDS tactics,”

*blandly asserting that contention is “not of God” and,

*responding with an answer to a question that was not asked (as per Bob “bait-and-switch” Millet).

This behavior encapsulates just about everything that's wrong with Mormon apologetics.

[_Franktalk]

So you feel it is ok to tell your story, but are confused if others who may not believe some LDS claims want to tell their story.

I am confused because of the hypocrisy.

I don't think many, if any, have said the Bible is worthless, even if they think it does not come from divine sources. I think it has value as history, and many teaching have value even if not unique to the Bible or Christianity.

I think it has value to many as a weapon to attack others beliefs. If you wish to be a tool for others I can't stop you.

I don't think most would think wasted, but that maybe better off. I also don't think most are that worried about it. At least I don't see them out knocking on peoples doors. :)

Your "better off" says everything I wanted to know.

That would be incorrect, but I can see why some religious people might think so.

I am incorrect in my opinion? Somehow you reached into my head and saw that I misrepresented my own opinion. You are a truly remarkable human specimen. I think that your brain should be frozen so future generations can uncover your greatness.

This to is incorrect. Maybe you could try and back it up. There are plenty of sets of men making up the rules for religious groups including the LDS.

No I do not think I will back it up. It is perfectly clear to me that you have everything figured out. So tell me now that man has everything figured out why do we still do research?

Again you are mistaken. There is not a sets of beliefs non-religious are asking you to believe, only that some of the beliefs you currently hold may not be accurate. When it comes to this many non-religious and religious are having success. How many less people believe in a young earth and global flood compared to 50 years ago?

Wow you still amaze me at your smartness. You sure told me off. So the people around you all think the same therefore it is perfectly OK to extend that to the rest of the world. And I thought that violated logic. But now that you cleared that up maybe you could help me out with some pesky numbers?

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

According to this site the nonbelievers are 16% of the world's population. Now I always thought that when the population doubled then the 84% would be the greater number. But now that you have cleared that all up for me I just need a little help in how that 16% overtakes the 84%. Help me out oh wise one.

[_Franktalk]

This behavior encapsulates just about everything that's wrong with Mormon apologetics.

Well said, now tell me how to support the church correctly?