Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Franktalk]

Or it could be completely random hapstance and those of you seeing supernatural intervention, delusional.

Flaw.your pick. Mileage may varry.

For most of my life I was saying the same thing. It feels odd being on this side of the debate. I have always mocked religious people until one day I became one.

[_Drifting]

Or it could be completely random hapstance and those of you seeing supernatural intervention, delusional.

Flaw.your pick. Mileage may varry.

For most of my life I was saying the same thing. It feels odd being on this side of the debate. I have always mocked religious people until one day I became one.

Franktalk, I understand what you are saying. It is consistent with most believing Mormons.
However, in the instance of the sexually abused nine year old girl here is what you are accepting:

1. God knew the risk of this man sexually abusing this nine year old girl, but went ahead and gambled her virtue that he might choose not to.
2. Knowing the risk, God proactively inspired Church leaders to choose this man over other potential candidates thereby deliberately placing her in jeopardy.
3. Knowing with 100% clarity that this abuse was about to take place and subsequently was actually taking place, God sat on His hands and did nothing (or not enough) to prompt any person within the vicinity to take action to prevent it.
4. God will allow your children and your grandchildren to be placed in exactly the same jeopardy.

I look forward to hearing His explanation of this 'learning experience' when He stands before her and her parents.

[_keithb]

If Mormons really have this divine gift, the Holy Ghost. Why don't they use it to help humanity? They could cure cancer. They could come up with an economic system that would do away with poverty. They could find a way to feed the starving people of the world. Instead, they tell us not to drink coffee. Everyone should pay 10% of their income to the Church Corporation no matter how poor they are. The Holy Ghost spends a lot of time on the Book of Abraham. We should all believe in it. The world is getting short-changed.

Solution to the hunger problem in Africa:

1. Send down several set of Mormon (or Christian) missionaries

2. Have them "repeat" the supposed miracle of Jesus to divide loaves and fishes into more food

2(a). 2 should be possible because of Matt. 17:20 and similar verses

3. Repeat on a massive scale

4. World hunger problem solved!

So, yeah. Let's get er dun, Christians!

[Guest]

Expirement time!

1 If the holy ghost principally manifests itself to those who have received it by the laying on the hands.

2. Those who have the holy ghost should have a demonstrably statistically significant less rate of fatal accidents.

Do the Utah per capita fatal accident rates differ significantly from national average?
Does Utah have significant differences in auto, home, and other accident fatalities than the surrounding states?

[_Franktalk]

Drifting,

Does God make men choose evil or does man choose evil? After man has chosen evil does God use these people as a puppet?

We came here by choice knowing how evil the world can be. How can we learn good from evil if evil is in a box with a hedge around it? In the book of Job evil visited Job for no reason other than a test of Job and a demonstration to Satan that Job would not curse God. I believe that God gives each of us a cross to bare if we can handle it. Using Him as an example we see someone tortured and killed for others. Then He goes on and tells us to be like Him. Maybe a verse from the Bible can shed some light on this issue.

Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Here we see people rejoice in their beatings that were done in the name of Christ. How can it be any other way? Do we suffer in a beating, I am sure everyone does. Does a person suffer in any kind of abuse, I am sure that is true. There is a fire of evil in the world and we are thrown into it. The fire can do many things. It can refine us as gold is refined or it can turn our hearts black as coal so hate consumes us. The evils you speak of are terrible and we hate for them to happen but we must place them in perspective of God's plan. Evil will happen and we try and minimize the evil around us and our children. But it will happen. How we deal with evil around us defines how we perceive God's plan. If we focus on the evil and fight it we do well. But if we focus on God and blame Him for evil we loose our self to evil. We do not fight evil with evil.

It is easy to blame God for the evils of the world. We can make a case that since He sent us here then all evil things are allowed by Him. We can say that since He has the power to stop evil then He is to blame when evil takes place. But when do you draw that connection? If we say God made the mountains and a climber falls to his death do we blame God for making the mountain? I would say that most do not blame God. Why then do we make a connection to God in one case and not the other? When innocent people are subjected to evil we seek to blame someone. Why is it that some blame God and not Satan? We knew Satan was here before we came here. Why do some now that they are here see what is happening differently. Satan will direct those who follow him to do the most vile of things. He knows that in doing so some will fall from their love of God. So Drifting how does it feel to be so easily manipulated.

[_Drifting]

Drifting,

Does God make men choose evil or does man choose evil? After man has chosen evil does God use these people as a puppet?

We came here by choice knowing how evil the world can be. How can we learn good from evil if evil is in a box with a hedge around it? In the book of Job evil visited Job for no reason other than a test of Job and a demonstration to Satan that Job would not curse God. I believe that God gives each of us a cross to bare if we can handle it. Using Him as an example we see someone tortured and killed for others. Then He goes on and tells us to be like Him. Maybe a verse from the Bible can shed some light on this issue.

Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Here we see people rejoice in their beatings that were done in the name of Christ. How can it be any other way? Do we suffer in a beating, I am sure everyone does. Does a person suffer in any kind of abuse, I am sure that is true. There is a fire of evil in the world and we are thrown into it. The fire can do many things. It can refine us as gold is refined or it can turn our hearts black as coal so hate consumes us. The evils you speak of are terrible and we hate for them to happen but we must place them in perspective of God's plan. Evil will happen and we try and minimize the evil around us and our children. But it will happen. How we deal with evil around us defines how we perceive God's plan. If we focus on the evil and fight it we do well. But if we focus on God and blame Him for evil we loose our self to evil. We do not fight evil with evil.

It is easy to blame God for the evils of the world. We can make a case that since He sent us here then all evil things are allowed by Him. We can say that since He has the power to stop evil then He is to blame when evil takes place. But when do you draw that connection? If we say God made the mountains and a climber falls to his death do we blame God for making the mountain? I would say that most do not blame God. Why then do we make a connection to God in one case and not the other? When innocent people are subjected to evil we seek to blame someone. Why is it that some blame God and not Satan? We knew Satan was here before we came here. Why do some now that they are here see what is happening differently. Satan will direct those who follow him to do the most vile of things. He knows that in doing so some will fall from their love of God. So Drifting how does it feel to be so easily manipulated.

I'm not sure what manipulation you are asking about.

In the instance of the sexually abused nine year old girl
I personally don't believe God was involved at all. But you do.

You believe God inspired the Bishop to appoint this man, who He knew was a risk to that little girl, to a position of power over her. Not only that but you believe that God can prompt you via the Holy Ghost to protect you or protect others. So in this case he either didn't or nobody in the ward, including the leaders were worthy enough to hear the prompting and subsequently she was abused.

Do you dispute that is what you believe?
a. Priesthood leaders are inspired by god in the appointments they make.
b. The Holy Ghost issues promptings to help and protect righteous people.

[_SteelHead]

Statistically Utah is among the top in the nation for per capita household bankruptcies, but hey, the HG demonstrated it is a piss poor financial planner in Kirtland, and Utah leads the nation in pay for porn consumption...... But accidents. How does it compare to say CO or WY?

[_Themis]

Expirement time!

1 If the holy ghost principally manifests itself to those who have received it by the laying on the hands.

2. Those who have the holy ghost should have a demonstrably statistically significant less rate of fatal accidents.

Do the Utah per capita fatal accident rates differ significantly from national average?
Does Utah have significant differences in auto, home, and other accident fatalities than the surrounding states?

You could also look at things like cancer survival rates since healings is a very common thing members will use the priesthood power for. Now of course God's will is supposed to prevail, but if the priesthood is a real power there should be at least a noticeable difference from similar groups.

[_Buffalo]

Statistically Utah is among the top in the nation for per capita household bankruptcies, but hey, the HG demonstrated it is a piss poor financial planner in Kirtland, and Utah leads the nation in pay for porn consumption...... But accidents. How does it compare to say CO or WY?

It's hard to be fiscally responsible when 10% of your income (often 70-90% of disposable income) goes to the Corporation of the President, even before you pay your other obligations.

[_SteelHead]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1173093/

Active LDS women in Utah have lower incidence rate of breast cancer (attributed to life style) but lower survivability rates than thier less active on non member analogs.

Guess those blessing aren't working.

I already know the tbm rebuttal: the lord is calling his elect home.