Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Franktalk]

Emilysmith,

The older I get the more I am sure I know very little. I used to be just like you in that I was sure about many things. But those days are over. I hope that one day you will awaken as I was to a more complex and meaningful existence. And at this point on your path there is nothing I can say that will make that day come any faster. So have a great Christmas and enjoy life. May God bless you and keep you well.

[_keithb]

Emilysmith,

Of the two world views which one is easier to accept? If you look at educated people you might say that the materialistic view wins. But if you look at world populations in the various religions you might suspect that faith in God is clearly the choice. So what is it about some education systems that lead one to a materialistic view? Are the people who go to these places of higher learning special? I don't think so. So something happens to them while they are in school. Can it be that the educational system (in America and Europe) is designed to produce people with a materialistic slant? I believe it is designed that way. Now others will say that children who grow up in a religious household will be predestined for religious faith. I am not sure that in Europe or in America the family holds that strong hold over the children like it used to. So can we say that each of us can choose the world view we like? I would like to think that it is a choice.

Franktalk,

I would like to offer you some answers -- in addition to whatever Emily may say to you -- to the questions that you have posited.

In response to your first paragraph, I would say that the "materialistic" view of the world is the one taught in Western schools because it's the one that seems to work. It is the one that explains the most about the world in which we live with the fewest interloping assumptions. Indeed, I would argue that one of the fundamental triumphs of cognition for modern humans -- probably one of the chief contributions to the development of modern technology and science -- is the realization of an external and at least somewhat intelligible universe that exists independently of the experiences of any one person. Indeed, if you or I were to die tomorrow, science tells us that the universe would continue its existence, even though for us this existence may have ended with our own. The models of science and mathematics for natural phenomena follow from that realization.

You speak of evidence in the material world. But what evidence would that be? Most evidence of the material world is neutral in determining a world view. A study of static or dynamic objects like bridges or airplanes gives neither side any advantage in picking a world view. But let us consider evolution or geology. Both of these have no direct observation of the past and theories about the past and assumptions on dating methods clouds our faith in the evidence. Unless of course you want to have a materialistic view and consider the assumptions of evolution and geology as facts or at least a logical choice in ones mind.

The evidence for this worldview is all around us, and it is evidence that you embrace at least practically, even if you're reluctant to do so philosophically. If your car or computer breaks, I suspect strongly that you assume that the error has a cause rooted in natural laws. I would suspect that you would embrace this logic to justify taking your car to a repair shop, instead of just tacitly accepting the failure as something beyond the comprehension of science and thus something that your mechanic would be unable to fix.

Are there strings attached? Sure. For all I/we know, we could all be living in the Matrix or some other equally incomprehensible situation where the universe and its laws are all an elaborate illusion. There really is no way to ultimately prove/disprove that, so I don't worry to much about it in my daily life. I would suspect that you don't either.

To test what I have just wrote maybe you can give me some evidence that you feel represents a solid foundation for a material world view. Then we can see if that evidence comes with any strings attached.

See above.

[_emilysmith]

In determining whether spirituality is actually spirit or just emotion, it seems that most people use emotion to determine the truth of it, creating a circular proposition, at best.

That’s very interesting. I recall reading somewhere that quantum computation occurs, at least to some degree, in the human brain…sorry, can’t recall the original source offhand but I could probably dig it up if you wanted me to. If this is true, wouldn’t this infer that consciousness is, in part, a quantum phenomenon?

I might be curious to see such a thing, but usually they are just attempts to prove free will through quantum indeterminacy. Neural plasticity is what allows our neural network to change and the structure of our cells and networks aren't really reacting to anything in regards to quantum indeterminacy. If you were to blast someone with different types of radiation, the altered atoms would not result in anything that one could perceive... besides maybe a burning sensation when exposed to an extremely large amount.

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk,

I would like to offer you some answers -- in addition to whatever Emily may say to you -- to the questions that you have posited.

In response to your first paragraph, I would say that the "materialistic" view of the world is the one taught in Western schools because it's the one that seems to work. It is the one that explains the most about the world in which we live with the fewest interloping assumptions. Indeed, I would argue that one of the fundamental triumphs of cognition for modern humans -- probably one of the chief contributions to the development of modern technology and science -- is the realization of an external and at least somewhat intelligible universe that exists independently of the experiences of any one person. Indeed, if you or I were to die tomorrow, science tells us that the universe would continue its existence, even though for us this existence may have ended with our own. The models of science and mathematics for natural phenomena follow from that realization.

That is a reasonable position to take. If you stop your examination of the world at the physical barrier then you can embrace a materialistic world with all the logic that it supplies. It is not a bad choice but from my view it is just not all that can be found. Where you may use your senses and various tools to examine the world you will find that tools of the world only find the world. That is clearly the case. Every once in a while there is a hint of something more but those cases are widely open to interpretation. To argue against the world using only tools of the world is a fools game and doomed for failure. This is why the young earth creationist fail to supply meaningful ideas about the past. If one embraces the world to describe the world the world is the result. What is so odd for me to ponder is why we come here in the flesh and stuggle in the physical world just to cast it off in order to go that next step. It is a very difficult thing to do and requires that you ignore your senses and man's logic. Few people actually do it. If you read the writings of Paul you see that he had a hard time of it as well. And what are we compared to Paul?


I would suggest to the people that still embrace the world that you consider the possibility that there is another step. The people you come across that have made that journey are not fools and refuse to see. They see but just see differently. They are not in need of correction. In the case of your beliefs or emilysmith's beliefs I know that the views you hold are reasonable and can give you a meaningful life. The reason I post on here and other places is to offer some ideas that may give someone a pathway to ponder the spiritual world as an option. I am a realist and know that very few will seek that path. The world will hate you if you take that path. But the world has hated many others before me.

[_sheryl]

Hi Emilysmith!

I would like to offer back to you something you said:

These things may require faith for the average, uneducated person, but do not require faith for someone who takes the time to learn how it works. Where it all came from is irrelevant if science has shown us that nature is consistent in how it operates.

There are individuals in this world who can see, hear, touch beyond the physical level, they experience realms beyond the physical, and so for them it is not a matter of faith, but a matter of science. They experience the spiritual just like they experience the physical. Explaining the spiritual to someone who does not experience it is like going to a person who has lived their entire life in a cave and trying to explain the sun to them. We can even bring to them evidence that the sun exists, and explain it is right out there, if they would only step outside of the cave. But without faith, they would think you were insane, cause there is nothing like the sun in their world. (Even though their very existence is dependent on the sun, they just cannot see it.)

I offer that when it comes to the spiritual, most of humanity is living in a cave, and even though the spiritual sustains their very existence, they can not see it, and so do not believe it is there. For the masses, it takes faith to believe in the spiritual, but for those who encounter it and deal with it daily - those who have the desire and have taken the time to see how it works - it is as natural to them as the sun and wind and rain.

I would also like to offer something else. We either believe this world is completely random or that it has order. Scientists believe in order, yes? And have proven that this scientific order does exist. And so they believe, they have faith, in a Power that they define as science. I offer that science is Logos, or that which incarnated in the flesh as Jesus. Logos: that which through and by all things that exist came into existence (Col 1:16) and that in which we exist or have our being (Acts 17:28). And as we are finding now, science is seeing beyond the physical plane, or our physical plane, now speculating that there is more than we have been able to detect with our mundane senses.

It is old science that says only this physical plane exists. It is like calling the world flat. Man is evolving in his understanding of the material, now beginning to see that the material is dependent on something that was not before detectable.

As shared scientists are men and women of faith too. They just do not realize that the science they have faith in is also Christ.


Peace be within you.

Sheryl

[_DrW]

There are individuals in this world who can see, hear, touch beyond the physical level, they experience realms beyond the physical, and so for them it is not a matter of faith, but a matter of science. They experience the spiritual just like they experience the physical. Explaining the spiritual to someone who does not experience it is like going to a person who has lived their entire life in a cave and trying to explain the sun to them. We can even bring to them evidence that the sun exists, and explain it is right out there, if they would only step outside of the cave. But without faith, they would think you were insane, cause there is nothing like the sun in their world. (Even though their very existence is dependent on the sun, they just cannot see it.)

I offer that when it comes to the spiritual, most of humanity is living in a cave, and even though the spiritual sustains their very existence, they can not see it, and so do not believe it is there. For the masses, it takes faith to believe in the spiritual, but for those who encounter it and deal with it daily - those who have the desire and have taken the time to see how it works - it is as natural to them as the sun and wind and rain.

I would also like to offer something else. We either believe this world is completely random or that it has order. Scientists believe in order, yes? And have proven that this scientific order does exist. And so they believe, they have faith, in a Power that they define as science. I offer that science is Logos, or that which incarnated in the flesh as Jesus. Logos: that which through and by all things that exist came into being. And as we are finding now, science is seeing beyond the physical plane, or our physical plane, now speculating that there is more than we have been able to detect with our mundane senses.

It is old science that says only this physical plane exists. It is like calling the world flat. Man is evolving in his understanding of the material, now beginning to see that the material is dependent on something that was not before detectable.

As shared scientists are men and women of faith too. They just do not realize that the science they have faith in is also Christ.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl

Sorry Sheryl,

One doesn't simply come on a discussion board and make unsubstantiated bald assertions and then walk away believing they have made a valid point. The only point you have made is that you are willing to make unsubstantiated claims based on unfounded belief.

Warren Jeffs of the FLDS Church, David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, Marshal Applewhite of the Heaven's Gate Cult, Jim Jones of Peoples Temple, and countless other people, many of them delusional, believe (or believed) that they have (or had) access to special knowledge from spiritual, supernatural, or magical sources.

In fact what these people have (had) is a fertile imagination combined with an abundance of superstition and lack of understanding and knowledge. In many cases, the worst of these these were narcissistic individuals who craved attention and obtained it by claiming supernatural or spiritual visions insights and powers.

You offered no evidence whatsoever to back up your fantastical and unsubstantiated claims. So let me offer you the opportunity to do so now. Please provide one example of a piece of knowledge or insight or demonstration of power that has been of objective, practical, physical use or value to humankind that came from someone who claimed that they received it from the "spirit".

Alternatively please name a single instance wherein claims of special knowledge or insights or power from spiritual or supernatural or magical sources has been verified or confirmed.

What you are claiming exists as the "spirit" is no more than the product of self-delusion, confirmation bias and in many cases outright lies and deception.

If you want evidence for this assertion, simply consider the "inspired" pronouncements of LDS Leaders who claim to be in communication with God or the spirit of God or the Holy Ghost. These include:

Adam God Theory, Quakers on the Moon, an inhabited sun, Curse of Cain, Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden in Daviss County MO, Kolob Cosmology, Book of Abraham from a Book of Breathings, Jaredites crossing the ocean in unpowered wooden semisubmersibles, angels with fiery swords commanding Joseph Smith to commit adultery, and polyandry (which he did more than 30 times), directions on the maximum number of ear rings that God wants LDS females to wear, the separation of the continents of the eastern and western hemispheres less than 10,000 years ago, a global flood, confounding of all language at the time of the tower of Babel, and no death before the fall of Adam less than 10,00 years ago.

And that is just from Mormonism. Now add in the spiritually inspired teachings of the death and polygamy cults named above along with Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelical Fundamentalists, Moslems and the rest and you can see what a mess the spirit leaves behind when it moves upon people.

Anyway, just one or two counterexamples would be good.

Thank you.

[_sheryl]

Sorry Sheryl,

One doesn't simply come on a discussion board and make unsubstantiated bald assertions and then walk away believing they have made a valid point. The only point you have made is that you are willing to make unsubstantiated claims based on unfounded belief.

Warren Jeffs of the FLDS Church, David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, Marshal Applewhite of the Heaven's Gate Cult, Jim Jones of Peoples Temple, and countless other people, many of them delusional, believe (or believed) that they have (or had) access to special knowledge from spiritual, supernatural, or magical sources.

In fact what these people have (had) is a fertile imagination combined with an abundance of superstition and lack of understanding and knowledge. In many cases, the worst of these these were narcissistic individuals who craved attention and obtained it by claiming supernatural or spiritual visions insights and powers.

You offered no evidence whatsoever to back up your fantastical and unsubstantiated claims. So let me offer you the opportunity to do so now. Please provide one example of a piece of knowledge or insight or demonstration of power that has been of objective, practical, physical use or value to humankind that came from someone who claimed that they received it from the "spirit".

Alternatively please name a single instance wherein claims of special knowledge or insights or power from spiritual or supernatural or magical sources has been verified or confirmed.

What you are claiming exists as the "spirit" is no more than the product of self-delusion, confirmation bias and in many cases outright lies and deception.

If you want evidence for this assertion, simply consider the "inspired" pronouncements of LDS Leaders who claim to be in communication with God or the spirit of God or the Holy Ghost. These include:

Adam God Theory, Quakers on the Moon, an inhabited sun, Curse of Cain, Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden in Daviss County MO, Kolob Cosmology, Book of Abraham from a Book of Breathings, Jaredites crossing the ocean in unpowered wooden semisubmersibles, angels with fiery swords commanding Joseph Smith to commit adultery, and polyandry (which he did more than 30 times), directions on the maximum number of ear rings that God wants LDS females to wear, the separation of the continents of the eastern and western hemispheres less than 10,000 years ago, a global flood, confounding of all language at the time of the tower of Babel, and no death before the fall of Adam less than 10,00 years ago.

And that is just from Mormonism. Now add in the spiritually inspired teachings of the death and polygamy cults named above along with Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelical Fundamentalists, Moslems and the rest and you can see what a mess the spirit leaves behind when it moves upon people.

Anyway, just one or two counterexamples would be good.

Thank you.

Dear Dr. W,

Are you a person of science?

Anyone student or master of science cannot deny the reality of evolution. I am not meaning humans evolving from apes, but something of a much grander scale.

Human knowledge and understanding is evolving, and we do have some evidence within our perception of the physical evolving of humankind. We look different now than we did 500 years ago. Our bodies on the average are larger, and also we now have longer lives. This evolution is more obvious because it can be attributed to diet and scientific discovery, in other words we are the cause or contributor of our own evolution.

But I offer that this evolution is occurring on a much grander scale than this! Human consciousness is evolving, able to 'perceive' and understand more than it was a few thousand even a few hundred years ago. Again, we have played a part in this evolution, but I offer that all of this is occurring on a much grander scale, according to the intent of creation.

And so yes, more of humanity is now able to perceive something of reality beyond the physical. But, just as we find good and evil in the physical there is good and evil in the spiritual (the struggle is with dominions and principalities of evil in the heavenly places - Paul) I offer that whether or not we are aware, the spiritual, the good and the evil, is affecting the physical. The examples of this influence that you gave were a bit more obvious, but I offer that each of us in this very moment is being influenced. It all part of human evolution. We learning about good and evil (remember the tree of knowledge?), we learning to discern, first in the physical and then in the spiritual, where the true struggle is occurring.

Examples? I offer human history. Everything that has occurred has done so because of spiritual influence. It is up to each of us in our own evolution to experience and to discern. And when a soul is ready to experience and learn directly from the spiritual, they are vulnerable at first to deception.

All though is as intended, part of the evolution of the human soul, so that it can become a son of God, able to move through all realms while able to hold onto the good and to remain separate from the evil.

I understand how hard it is to accept though that part of the plan is human suffering, or humanity being duped by evil or admixture influences. But this is the way this world has been created, as a growing ground for the evolution of individual soul/consciousness's.

Dr. W, though this may be something difficult to accept for many, I offer that this is indeed the way things are. This is indeed what we are all experiencing. And the sooner that we awaken and become conscious agents to our own evolution, instead of being unconsciously influenced by these spiritual forces, the sooner what was intended will be accomplished, which is the meaning of perfected, as used in scripture.

Examples? I have millions. Again everything that happens in this world is an example. Think of it this way, until we had microscopes we had no evidence of the molecular world. Though it was there all along. Until we can see, we will have no evidence of the spiritual, though it is there, sustaining and providing the tension for the evolution of souls.

I can say look there is evidence, but only those who can see the spiritual will be able to witness the evidence. Those who have started to awaken though, will sense what I am talking about and will hunger and thirst to be able to see.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl

[_Drifting]

Sheryl, in response to DrW...

Examples? I offer human history. Everything that has occurred has done so because of spiritual influence.

World War 2 occurred because of spiritual influence?

[_DrW]

Sorry Sheryl,

One doesn't simply come on a discussion board and make unsubstantiated bald assertions and then walk away believing they have made a valid point. The only point you have made is that you are willing to make unsubstantiated claims based on unfounded belief.

Warren Jeffs of the FLDS Church, David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, Marshal Applewhite of the Heaven's Gate Cult, Jim Jones of Peoples Temple, and countless other people, many of them delusional, believe (or believed) that they have (or had) access to special knowledge from spiritual, supernatural, or magical sources.

In fact what these people have (had) is a fertile imagination combined with an abundance of superstition and lack of understanding and knowledge. In many cases, the worst of these these were narcissistic individuals who craved attention and obtained it by claiming supernatural or spiritual visions insights and powers.

You offered no evidence whatsoever to back up your fantastical and unsubstantiated claims. So let me offer you the opportunity to do so now. Please provide one example of a piece of knowledge or insight or demonstration of power that has been of objective, practical, physical use or value to humankind that came from someone who claimed that they received it from the "spirit".

Alternatively please name a single instance wherein claims of special knowledge or insights or power from spiritual or supernatural or magical sources has been verified or confirmed.

What you are claiming exists as the "spirit" is no more than the product of self-delusion, confirmation bias and in many cases outright lies and deception.

If you want evidence for this assertion, simply consider the "inspired" pronouncements of LDS Leaders who claim to be in communication with God or the spirit of God or the Holy Ghost. These include:

Adam God Theory, Quakers on the Moon, an inhabited sun, Curse of Cain, Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden in Daviss County MO, Kolob Cosmology, Book of Abraham from a Book of Breathings, Jaredites crossing the ocean in unpowered wooden semisubmersibles, angels with fiery swords commanding Joseph Smith to commit adultery, and polyandry (which he did more than 30 times), directions on the maximum number of ear rings that God wants LDS females to wear, the separation of the continents of the eastern and western hemispheres less than 10,000 years ago, a global flood, confounding of all language at the time of the tower of Babel, and no death before the fall of Adam less than 10,00 years ago.

And that is just from Mormonism. Now add in the spiritually inspired teachings of the death and polygamy cults named above along with Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelical Fundamentalists, Moslems and the rest and you can see what a mess the spirit leaves behind when it moves upon people.

Anyway, just one or two counterexamples would be good.

Thank you.

Dear Dr. W,

Are you a person of science?

Anyone student or master of science cannot deny the reality of evolution. I am not meaning humans evolving from apes, but something of a much grander scale.

Human knowledge and understanding is evolving, and we do have some evidence within our perception of the physical evolving of humankind. We look different now than we did 500 years ago. Our bodies on the average are larger, and also we now have longer lives. This evolution is more obvious because it can be attributed to diet and scientific discovery, in other words we are the cause or contributor of our own evolution.

But I offer that this evolution is occurring on a much grander scale than this! Human consciousness is evolving, able to 'perceive' and understand more than it was a few thousand even a few hundred years ago. Again, we have played a part in this evolution, but I offer that all of this is occurring on a much grander scale, according to the intent of creation.

And so yes, more of humanity is now able to perceive something of reality beyond the physical. But, just as we find good and evil in the physical there is good and evil in the spiritual (the struggle is with dominions and principalities of evil in the heavenly places - Paul) I offer that whether or not we are aware, the spiritual, the good and the evil, is affecting the physical. The examples of this influence that you gave were a bit more obvious, but I offer that each of us in this very moment is being influenced. It all part of human evolution. We learning about good and evil (remember the tree of knowledge?), we learning to discern, first in the physical and then in the spiritual, where the true struggle is occurring.

Examples? I offer human history. Everything that has occurred has done so because of spiritual influence. It is up to each of us in our own evolution to experience and to discern. And when a soul is ready to experience and learn directly from the spiritual, they are vulnerable at first to deception.

All though is as intended, part of the evolution of the human soul, so that it can become a son of God, able to move through all realms while able to hold onto the good and to remain separate from the evil.

I understand how hard it is to accept though that part of the plan is human suffering, or humanity being duped by evil or admixture influences. But this is the way this world has been created, as a growing ground for the evolution of individual soul/consciousness's.

Dr. W, though this may be something difficult to accept for many, I offer that this is indeed the way things are. This is indeed what we are all experiencing. And the sooner that we awaken and become conscious agents to our own evolution, instead of being unconsciously influenced by these spiritual forces, the sooner what was intended will be accomplished, which is the meaning of perfected, as used in scripture.

Examples? I have millions. Again everything that happens in this world is an example. Think of it this way, until we had microscopes we had no evidence of the molecular world. Though it was there all along. Until we can see, we will have no evidence of the spiritual, though it is there, sustaining and providing the tension for the evolution of souls.

I can say look there is evidence, but only those who can see the spiritual will be able to witness the evidence. Those who have started to awaken though, will sense what I am talking about and will hunger and thirst to be able to see.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl

Sheryl,
Thank you for your response. Your beliefs are shared by many in this world - far too many, in fact. Here is where your arguments fail - and I am talking about utter failure. Everyth9ng you claim as evidence for your position is better explained by science. More on this below.

To start with, there is no evidence whatsoever that the human brain is evolving in a way that makes it more attuned to "reality beyond the physical". In fact, if one were to look at belief in the supernatural, belief in spiritual influences and superstitions (which is exactly what you are referring to, with or without intent), one would see that these kind of beliefs were much more prevalent earlier in human history (think Salem Witch Trials vs. MIT).

Carl Sagan described those who believe as you do as living in a Demon Haunted World. A much larger percentage of the population lived in Demon Haunted Worlds in the past than live there now. When you proclaim the worldview and beliefs as you do, you are placing yourself squarely in a Demon Haunted World.

You seem to have human evolution exactly backwards. Humankind is headed out of the darkness of the Demon Haunted World with the light provided through advances in science leading the way. If you choose to stay behind, fine. Please do not claim that you and those who share your worldview represent the evolution of humankind. The data say that exactly the opposite is true. And we do have the data.

You make the circular statement that only those who have the spirit will be able to perceive the spirit. Think about it. What does this even mean? If I don't have the spirit how can I get the spirit if I can't perceive the spirit unless I have the spirit? Can you see how weak this kind or reasoning really is?

As a scientist, I would never say that only those who have science can understand science. What I do say is that anyone who is the least bit interested in how the world works can learn about how it works by learning a bit about science for themselves.

Just have a look at my newly acquired signature line (courtesy of Gadianton on another thread). He was not joking. I would go so far as to say that any NOVA program or informational/educational video from the NSF or MIT contains more useful knowledge than is present in all of the spiritually inspired utterances of religionists.

Neither set of examples you have provided constitute evidence for your case. And saying that everything that happens in the world is an example of evidence for your case is not helpful - really.

And again, here is why your assertion about the spirit fail: the best hypotheses to explain the way the world works, and all of the phenomenon that one observes in the world - those you cite as evidence for the spirit - are in fact scientific hypotheses. That is, things that you ascribe to "the spirit" are best explained by science, without exception.

And if you wish to counter that claim, then you will still need to provide some specific verifiable physical evidence, or specific examples, for your position. And claiming that everything that happens in the world is evidence is not quite specific enough, I'm afraid.

[_sheryl]

World War 2 occurred because of spiritual influence?

Indeed. What occurs in the physical is a reflection of what is occurring on the inner planes, both external and internal to us.

In other words, evil and the struggle against evil in the material directly corresponds to evil and the struggle against evil on the inner side, or the spiritual realms of creation - external and internal being basically the same. So the internal struggle within humanity between good and evil becomes manifest in wars, as well as sporting events! ;)

There were many righteous beings living during the time of WWII that we busy influencing the allies on the inner side, empowering them, to defeat Germany. The allies were deemed the lesser evil, the greater evil, the axis powers, would have greatly deterred the evolution of souls if they had triumphed.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl