malkie wrote:Slightly Old Testament: Of course, sometimes members got in the news without any help from the PCD. A few years after I left Scotland I heard that one of the Scottish newspapers printed an article about a couple of men who were involved in a drunken brawl in the street: they were the Elders Quorum President and the Young Men's President.
No such thing as bad publicity if they spell your name correctly? (From a Sassinak)
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
malkie wrote:Slightly Old Testament: Of course, sometimes members got in the news without any help from the PCD. A few years after I left Scotland I heard that one of the Scottish newspapers printed an article about a couple of men who were involved in a drunken brawl in the street: they were the Elders Quorum President and the Young Men's President.
No such thing as bad publicity if they spell your name correctly? (From a Sassinak)
That may be true in show business, but I don't think that the church regarded this particular incident as a positive.
Uch awa' wi' ye ya wee nyaff ur ah'll pi' the hied oan yi.
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
I have improved my cherry picking techniques by reading your posts.
That's why I recommend you quit the habit. You keep getting caught.
It does not seem to deter you.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Aristotle Smith wrote:In that sense, the GAs are being very rational. If the choice is between a slow bleeding out of members vs. a hemorrhage, the slow bleed is the rational choice. In the worst case you lose the same amount of members, in the best case some miracle happens and the slow bleed either gets even slower or stops altogether.
I think they've been waiting since 4/6/1830 for a miracle, even just one.
At one time I was concerned about the number of members of the church (LDS) and other churches as well. I no longer get concerned about this and many other issues related to the church. The other issues concerned prison rates and divorce rates of LDS members. I had thought that once someone became a "true" Christian that the behavior of the person would show in national stats and would support any church as being "true". I have found that all churches in general have members that reflect society at large. I thought at one time that this was a measure of the doctrine of the church. But I have changed my view and see the members of the church as just the flesh and the natural man. The spirit of the man and the doctrine of any church is not related to the behavior of the members. It may seem strange to some but the behavior of the weak body is not the same as the spirit of man. There is a war going on inside of everyone who starts on the spiritual path. As the spirit of man starts on that path the body is still weak and it still lives in this fallen world. In much of the struggle the body still does what it always has. This is why the stats of religious people and those who don't believe are similar. A good person will be a good person regardless of their religious beliefs.
The OP talked about how members are leaving the church and many churches in general. The reason was that the church had this problem or that problem. I can say with all confidence that problems abound and those who wish to see them as a stumbling block will indeed stumble on them. Let me make my point with some ancient history before addressing recent history. The early church stumbled on some scripture. The first was a misread of Peter being the rock in which the church was to be built. The rock is and always has been Christ. The rock referred to in scripture (related to Peter) was the spiritual communication that he received about Jesus. It is spiritual communication that is the witness of the truth on the earth. The second stumbling block was when Peter killed the man and his wife. The early church took this as authority of life and death on the earth. Christ never said kill my sheep. Just because something is written in scripture it MUST be compared to all other verses. The early church with blinders on became a murderer of men and women. Thus the apostate church.
Indeed there are many areas of scripture for us to stumble on. It is done on purpose so that we can learn. Scripture even admits this and those who see past the Words to the spirit need not be too concerned about the letter of scripture but instead follow the spirit. This may seem like I am saying scripture means nothing. God forbid that view. Let us take the primary commandment to love our God with everything we have. Some twist this and compare this commandment with other parts of scripture and say a loving God would not do this or that. They use their own judgment on God. They also view parts of scripture through the lens of the world to make that judgment. If one uses the world to view scripture I can tell you that scripture will supply you with all you need to see it as foolish. The Bible admits this as well.
Now we come to the scriptures and practices of the early LDS church. Can we see stumbling blocks set in the writings? Sure. Can we see practices of the early church and even mistakes made today that would indicate that the church is flawed? Sure. So just how are we to judge the church? If we judge the church with a worldly mind we will reject the church. But if we see the church through spiritual eyes our expectations are different. We seek not perfection but we should instead see a stepping stone for a spiritual walk. We should see a gathering place for fellowship. But most important does the Holy Ghost tell us that we should stay in the church. For me that answer is yes. No other reason is required and I seek not to support the Holy Ghost with worldly reason.
What I take away from your little sermon is that the Church looks foolish when judged according to reasonable and rational criteria. Given this indisputable fact, you therefore recommend that people leave all logic, reason and common sense behind, and instead continue in a desire to believe that a Church that was founded by a adulterous con-man and demonstrated liar is the one true Church upon the face of the Earth today.
Your advice to others is to continue in this desire to believe until belief, however delusional, is achieved. You would then recommend that others somehow maintain this unfounded belief, against their own self interest, and in the face of exhaustive and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Sounds like a great plan to me.
Have I missed anything?
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."