Franktalk, Are we hear to learn about good and evil?

[_Drifting]

Frank

You stated we are here to learn to know good from evil.

How do you know that?

[_Franktalk]

Are we here to learn good from evil?

I know we are. I know this because of my faith in the truth of scripture. I am not talking about how every word and every sentence must be tested against the logic of the world but I am talking about the ideas and message contained in the Words.

I can give you a lesson in what the Bible says about learning good and evil and how it all started in the garden. But you could find that out yourself. I think instead you wish to know how it is that I can be so sure. I think you wish to understand why I have faith in God and His message. I can give you a witness of my faith but I can not do the things for you so you can have faith. That is a personal journey that starts with seeking God.

Let me ask you about a newborn baby. Do you think that a baby is evil? Or do you feel that a baby is innocent and learns about evil from the world? If indeed there is evil in the world where did it come from? In your mind can you separate out evil from the people who perform it? If you can't then explain to me how the baby contained the evil at birth? Let me know how you see evil before we go on.

[_Drifting]

Frank.

I have seen young children that have an inbulit psychopathic tendancy.
This hasn't been because of their upbringing or any nurturing influence. It is in their genetic make up. They are, by their very nature, prone to be evil. Left unchecked by medical intervention these children go on to harm animals and then other children and then on into adulthood.

Thus, they haven't learnt to be evil (as we define it). They just have an evil streak in them.

This type of thing manifests itself to a lesser extant in people who are prone to anger or prone to cowardice or prone to be risk takers etc. For instance, Formula One motor racing drivers have an inbuilt genetic make up that releases them from being scared of driving that fast and braking that late. Most people cannot do what they do, no matter how much training etc goes in. Unless they have that certain genetic trait enabling them to not have that fear, they can't do it.

There are genetic traits within each of us that we are born with.

So, I'm afraid I don't agree that we are all born as blank canvasses when it comes to doing good or doing evil.

[_Franktalk]

Drifting,

If it is that we have built in systems which determine our behavior then that is a deterministic view of the world and by extension all of reality. Now do you believe that there is such a thing as free will? If so where does this come into play? And if we have free will then where did it come from?

[_Drifting]

Drifting,

If it is that we have built in systems which determine our behavior then that is a deterministic view of the world and by extension all of reality.

Why do you want to paint the whole of humanity with the same broad brush? Children born with psychopathic tendencies have much less ability to choose not to harm someone than I do, or you do. A person born with the inbuilt risk taking gene can opt out of being a Formula One driver very easily, but someone without that gene will find it impossible to choose to pursue that career.
So people have differing levels and types of choices available to them.

You think we have built in systems to all make the same types of choices on good and evil. We don't.

[_Franktalk]

Drifting,

Just answer the question. Is evil part of us or is it separate?

[_Drifting]

Drifting,

Just answer the question. Is evil part of us or is it separate?

I've answered it.
If you read my first post you will read that I have seen where individuals have inbuilt traits that lead to abhorrent behaviour if left without medical intervention.

[_Franktalk]

I've answered it.
If you read my first post you will read that I have seen where individuals have inbuilt traits that lead to abhorrent behaviour if left without medical intervention.

You will have to make up your mind. When I called you a determinist you did not like that. But everything you have said so far drives to that conclusion. If evil comes from people just say so. You can't dance around the subject. If you believe that one's genetics and environment are responsible for evil then we are all born as a slave to our genetics and environment. I think you feel that the system is so complex we can't figure out exactly what causes any single event but overall a mix of genetics and environment causes evil. Is that the way you feel? If so the logical end of that thinking is that we are all slaves to the initial conditions of the universe. If however you reject that you will have to say what you do believe. So far you want a deterministic view on some things but overall don't wish to go there. If that is the case then tell me where the model does not work in your view?

[_Drifting]

I've answered it.
If you read my first post you will read that I have seen where individuals have inbuilt traits that lead to abhorrent behaviour if left without medical intervention.

You will have to make up your mind. When I called you a determinist you did not like that. But everything you have said so far drives to that conclusion. If evil comes from people just say so. You can't dance around the subject. If you believe that one's genetics and environment are responsible for evil then we are all born as a slave to our genetics and environment. I think you feel that the system is so complex we can't figure out exactly what causes any single event but overall a mix of genetics and environment causes evil. Is that the way you feel? If so the logical end of that thinking is that we are all slaves to the initial conditions of the universe. If however you reject that you will have to say what you do believe. So far you want a deterministic view on some things but overall don't wish to go there. If that is the case then tell me where the model does not work in your view?

Again you go with a one size fits all perspective and try and pin it on me.

Firstly - the world determines what is good and what is evil.
Would it be evil of me to cut someones hand off?
Would it still be evil if I was a law enforcement officer in Saudi Arabia meting out the punishment required of a convicted thief?
So, the action of cutting someones hand off can be viewed as good or as evil depending on through who's eyes your looking at the time.

Secondly, I believe that people are born with varying capacities for choosing good and evil. In the case of a child born with psychopathic tendancies, I do not believe they have a capacity to choose in the way that you or I understand it. An outside agency has to intervene to prevent their actions that would go against societies definition of what is acceptable.

When you hear an unexpected and sharp loud noise do you choose to be startled and 'jump' and make your heart beat faster? No, you don't because it is an involuntary reaction, an instinct that you were born with.
Some people have an involuntary reaction to events that manifests itself in angry outbursts. Some people have an involuntary reaction to events that manifests itself in psychotic outbursts.

The key seems to be in determining what is involuntary and what is voluntary.
You seem to want to paint me as thinking everything people do is involuntary.
I don't. I recognise that life and people are far more complex and varied than simply beings that are capable of making choices based on their nutrture and upbringing.

I don't like you labelling me a determinist because that is not what I am, nor does it accurately reflect my views.

[Guest]

I don't like you labelling me a determinist because that is not what I am, nor does it accurately reflect my views.

Now that we have that straight we can move along. I happen to agree that some people tend to be more evil then others. And it is true that certain environments can lead to stressful conditions and may lead to evil as well. But the question still remains. Are people neutral and learn good and evil? If you wish to dwell in fringe cases where some have broken systems in their body we will not make much of this discussion. If instead we focus on some what normal people we may have a fruitful discussion. It is my belief that both good and evil is something we learn. I believe as we develop that we learn that our actions impact others and we learn to read the reaction of others. We learn that we can inflict pain or emotional stress. We also learn that we can express tenderness and love. It is our free will which decides how to act in this world. We can use the tools of evil or we can use the tools of good.