Franktalk, Are we hear to learn about good and evil?

[_Drifting]

I don't like you labelling me a determinist because that is not what I am, nor does it accurately reflect my views.

Now that we have that straight we can move along. I happen to agree that some people tend to be more evil that others. And it is true that certain environments can lead to stressful conditions and may lead to evil as well. But the question still remains. Are people neutral and learn good and evil? If you wish to dwell in fringe cases where some have broken systems in their body we will not make much of this discussion. If instead we focus on some what normal people we may have a fruitful discussion. It is my belief that both good and evil is something we learn. I believe as we develop that we learn that our actions impact others and we learn to read the reaction of others. We learn that we can inflict pain or emotional stress. We also learn that we can express tenderness and love. It is our free will which decides how to act in this world. We can use the tools of evil or we can use the tools of good.

So we agree that you believe some people are here to learn good from evil and some people aren't. How do you determine what is inherently good and what is inherently evil?

[_Franktalk]

So we agree that you believe some people are here to learn good from evil and some people aren't. How do you determine what is inherently good and what is inherently evil?

I do not agree that some people do not learn good and evil. I believe there is much more going on than just the surface consciousness of man. I think our spirit learns many things that our carnal mind is not aware of. I also believe that each spirit that has a body is unique and existed long before coming into this physical plane. I believe that those spirits are not all alike and have a personality before arriving. So they are presupposed to good or evil before they get here. We have people who grew up in the worst conditions yet are as saints and we have people who grew up in the best conditions that become monsters. No matter what the environment is we have a choice. We can embrace good or we can embrace evil. Most have some of both. Some get worst with age and some get better.

[_Drifting]

I do not agree that some people do not learn good and evil.

What about babies who die before reaching an age where they have a level of independent thought?

What about people who are born with severe mental impairment?

How do these people learn good and evil?

[_Franktalk]

I do not agree that some people do not learn good and evil.

What about babies who die before reaching an age where they have a level of independent thought?

What about people who are born with severe mental impairment?

How do these people learn good and evil?

How God takes care of these is unknown to me. But I trust God to have a reason for everything that happens. If one dies with no sin then that is a blessing. What is important to me is life eternal with God. A short life here can be a blessing. It is of course seen by those who walk in the flesh as a black mark against God. It does depend on what you hold as valuable, this life in the flesh or eternal life with God.

[_Drifting]

I do not agree that some people do not learn good and evil.

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How God takes care of these is unknown to me. But I trust God to have a reason for everything that happens. If one dies with no sin then that is a blessing. What is important to me is life eternal with God. A short life here can be a blessing. It is of course seen by those who walk in the flesh as a black mark against God. It does depend on what you hold as valuable, this life in the flesh or eternal life with God.

So do you now agree that some people do not learn good and evil?

[_Franktalk]

So do you now agree that some people do not learn good and evil?

No I do not. The existence in the flesh is exposure to a reality in which evil and good manifest, we are held accountable for our reaction to that reality after the age of accountability. But we are exposed to good and evil the moment we enter this realm. If God places spirits in a body that lives in the flesh for a short time then I trust that what ever was to be learned was. After all it is the spirit that is important not the body. The time spent is not an indication of the quality.

[_Drifting]

So do you now agree that some people do not learn good and evil?

No I do not. The existence in the flesh is exposure to a reality in which evil and good manifest, we are held accountable for our reaction to that reality after the age of accountability.

Do you agree that some people cannot be held accountable for their reaction to the manifestation of good and evil during their existence in the flesh?

[_Franktalk]

Do you agree that some people cannot be held accountable for their reaction to the manifestation of good and evil during their existence in the flesh?

Yes there are some that are not held accountable. The exact nature of this I do not know.

In Romans Paul makes the case that as the spirit develops with Christ what the flesh does starts to be a separate issue with God. God only concerns Himself with what the spirit is doing.

Romans 8

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Verse 13 is key.

We all sin. But if we have separated our spirit from the flesh and do not embrace the flesh but repent the sins of the flesh then our spirit is pleasing to God. The flesh means nothing to God except for those spirits that embrace the lust of the flesh. This is why people of faith still have the same problems in the flesh as anyone else. The flesh will not become strong in faith only our spirit does. The flesh remains weak. Many do not understand this at all.

[_Drifting]

Do you agree that some people cannot be held accountable for their reaction to the manifestation of good and evil during their existence in the flesh?

Yes there are some that are not held accountable. The exact nature of this I do not know.

Okay, so for some the purpose of this life is not to learn about good or evil.

The debate then becomes about who is not accountable and why.
I have put forward two suggestions of people that cannot be accountable for making a conscious decision about what is good and what is evil:
Babies and the mentally impaired.

Let us take mental impairment.
This is usually the case because of genetics - I know some people have this brought on by trauma and accident etc, but by and large it is a condition that people are born with.
There are some people that commit what we perceive to be evil acts that we refer to as psychopaths. This is a condition that has been traced to a genetic condition that they are born with, that they can do nothing about and have to rely on medical or preventative interventions to stop them committing evil acts.

So, it is true that some people can be born inherently evil rather than it be a choice.
It is also true that people are born with tendancies to do things that are evil.

There is a scale:
At one end we have people that have absolutely no conscious choice to do good or evil.
At the other we have people that have a total conscious choice to do good or evil.

All of humanity sits somewhere along that scale.
People have varying degree's and limits on their abilities to make 'good' choices.

You then put into the melting pot the worlds perceptions of what is good and what is evil.

If a man murders another man, robs him on the spot, and then steals items of value from that mans house - all because he has heard voices in his head telling him to do it.
Is that good or is that evil?

[_Franktalk]

Okay, so for some the purpose of this life is not to learn about good or evil.

No, we all come here to learn good from evil. Exactly how that is accomplished I don't know.