Mormon Infobia...

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_Runtu
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Runtu »

ldsfaqs wrote:Just because some people choose to not judge YOUR "invective", to ignore it and just respond to the claims, doesn't mean YOU are actually a good person, and people like LDSfaqs, Bcspace etc. are "bad" for judging you, while they are also answering you.


I've never said you or bcspace were bad people, nor have I engaged in invective.

For example, you continue to LIE claiming that "I" never address any issues nor present any evidence, that all I do is call you names. Do you really expect me to not call you a liar when you are being one? I answer claims all the time, yet you lie and claim I don't.


You "answer" by assertion and by pasting links to things you think support your position. I'd like to see some evidence that you've actually processed what you read and have your own, supported conclusions. You haven't provided any evidence thus far of that, so no, I'm not "lying" in saying that you don't address the issues other than to call us names and occasionally link to a FAIR article. We've all read the FAIR articles, and we recognize that they are extremely problematic, for the reasons I've discussed. And no one is going to take you seriously as long as you keep calling everyone a liar. It's not helpful, and it's not true.

I appreciate people like Ben, but don't presume YOU are somehow better. You're not even close.


I claim to be no better than anyone. I'm well aware of my weaknesses and faults, and I try to be better every day.

My "invective" ONLY exists because of YOUR invective, belittling, degrading, lying etc. about Mormons and the Church.


I haven't done any of that, other than respond in frustration a couple of times to your silliness. Saying "you started it" may work as an excuse for a small child, but not here.

Ben's a scholar, me I'm a fighter. We each have our roles.


I couldn't care less about your "role." Ben is a scholar, and an impressive one at that. I don't believe I've ever had an unpleasant exchange with Ben in the over 10 years or so that I have known him. There's a reason for that.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Runtu
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Runtu »

whoops
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Yoda

Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Yoda »

ldsfaq wrote:So, spare us the "pretend" respect, that you actually respect ANY LDS, or LDS scholar and apologist. You think they ALL are liars, they ALL are stupid, etc., no matter how respectful and scholared they are toward critics and anti-mormons.


BS. I am an active member, and my respect is genuine. I am one of the few here who count Dan Peterson as a close friend; I also have great respect for David Bokovoy.

Knock off the broad brush strokes.
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Liz writes:
Why has there been so much confusion regarding the teachings of the seer stones and the Urim and Thumim? For years, I thought they were the same thing because they are used interchangeably.
Some years ago, I discovered the account of Eilley Orrum Bowers. She was born in Scotland in 1826. 15 years later, she married a Mormon missionary and emigrated to the US. After two divorces (one out of a polygamous marriage), she eventually married a non-Mormon, and the two of them discovered one of the first and richest silver lodes in Comstock. She attributed the discovery to her seeing the silver with her seer stone - the one that had come to her from her mother and which she brought with her from Scotland.

Now, what does this have to do with your question? Well, we have this challenge. In the formative years of the church, the notion of seer stones was wide spread (even if they were often viewed with some disdain). The Urim and Thummim were viewed as seer stones (and they were called this more than once). The early LDS church on the other hand, as part of a "restoration movement" saw the connection in reverse. It wasn't so much that the Urim and Thummim were seer stones, rather they saw seer stones as Urim and Thummim. This is kind of the foundation for parts of Section 130 in the D&C (and here is a little bit of it):
The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.
Now Section 130 is a bit of a hodgepodge from multiple sources, but, I think you can get the idea here. Everyone was to get a Urim and Thummim - a "white stone" (and let's not forget as was already mentioned, Joseph found his white stone in a well). This gets translated into the LDS Bible Dictionary entry as "An instrument prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages." And so on.

Joseph's understanding eventually changed a bit as this note from Pratt suggests:
Elder Pratt said he was present when this revelation was given. No great noise or physical manifestation was made; Joseph was as calm as the morning sun. But he noticed a change in his countenance that he had never noticed before, when a revelation was given to him. Joseph's face was exceedingly white, and seemed to shine. The speaker had been present many times when he was translating the New Testament, and wondered why he did not use the Urim and Thummim, as in translating the Book of Mormon. While this thought passed through the speaker's mind, Joseph, as if he read his thoughts, looked up and explained that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thumim when he was inexperienced in the Spirit of inspirtation. But now he had advanced so far that he understood the operations of the Spirit, and did not need the assistancce of that instrument. (Millennial Star 36 [August 11, 1874]:498–99)
Now my commentary. I think that in general terms, early LDS developed what we might call a syllogism: all seer stones were also Urim and Thummims. At least initially this was seen as part of the restoration, and perhaps even that every saint should have one. This got a little out of control after a bit (as we see in some of the stories right? Remember Hiram Page?) That combined with the notion that the seer stone and even the Urim and Thummim was more of a prop for Joseph Smith, the use of seer stones faded relatively quickly. However, in their literature the blending had already been completed. The literature of the early LDS will on occasion use the terms interchangeably, even when we wish they wouldn't. We don't have the same sense of being a restorationist movement. And the fusing of the two becomes problematic when we understand that the original mechanism of the Urim and Thummim was likely a matched pair of black and white stones which were pulled from the pouch made by the breastplate to answer a yes or no question. (Our understanding of all this is quite limited and is probably partially inaccurate on all fronts). At any rate, this is the source of the confusion. It is why we all learned that they were interchangeable. And I suspect that my line of thinking also explains why we tend to describe them but then generally ignore them afterwards - particularly since Joseph himself, once he decided he could do without, simply did without. The seer stones and perhaps even the Urim and Thummim became an unused relic in the church (but it took some time due to cultural influences as we see with the Washoe Seeress Eilley Orrum Bowers).

Ben M.
_Runtu
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Runtu »

liz3564 wrote:BS. I am an active member, and my respect is genuine. I am one of the few here who count Dan Peterson as a close friend; I also have great respect for David Bokovoy.

Knock off the broad brush strokes.


Exactly. It's strange that he can't imagine that we would have any respect or kind feelings toward those who defend the church, probably because he considers us "enemies" and projects his own personality onto us.

I love Mormons, especially the one I'm married to, as well as my offspring, parents, and siblings. I've met or broken bread with a lot of apologists from these boards, including maklelan, smac97, mentalgymnast, wenglund, HiJolly, and others. I'm still waiting on a BBQ invitation from David Bokovoy, who really is an all-round excellent guy.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Yoda

Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Yoda »

Thanks for explaining that, Ben! :-)

It makes me feel better! LOL

I really thought I was missing something.

So...Joseph was able to use his personal seer stone and the Urim and Thummim interchangeably. Am I correct in this?

The fact that Joseph would no longer necessarily have to use the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone makes perfect sense, as time goes on. That part never did bother me.

I suppose that the same is true for not always having to have the plates in the same room with him as well?
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

The original Urim and Thummim were large and transparent Liz. Since he couldn't read the plates very well when using the U&T, he soon started copying characters to paper to read them through the U&T. When at some point he got tired of that (it was not easy for him for reasons we can only speculate about), and he tried his stone, it became apparent that he could read from the stone without looking at the papers (the stone was not translucent). I think at that point he realized that he didn't need to be looking at either the pages or the gold plates. Eventually, he receives "translations" without even having a source (writings of John the Revelator).
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Fence Sitter »

liz3564 wrote:Thanks for explaining that, Ben! :-)

It makes me feel better! LOL

I really thought I was missing something.

So...Joseph was able to use his personal seer stone and the Urim and Thummim interchangeably. Am I correct in this?

The fact that Joseph would no longer necessarily have to use the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone makes perfect sense, as time goes on. That part never did bother me.


I suppose that the same is true for not always having to have the plates in the same room with him as well?


It did seem to bother some of those around him, like the Whitmers.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Carton
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Carton »

Runtu wrote:
SteelHead wrote:Faqs,
Do you ever actually post anything besides for calling people liars? By that, I mean do you actually ever forward any information, or positions?

Just wondering...


Not that I've seen.

I have almost become convinced that "ldsfaqs" is actually one of those vicious, lying, cunning, conspiring anti-Mormons who has created a sock-puppet to make TBMs look idiotic.

I mean, he couldn't really be a genuine TBM, could he?

Talk about giving Mormons a bad name ...
"I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not."
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_SteelHead
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _SteelHead »

I did suggest earlier that faqs is just another study in the aplication of Poe's law.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
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