Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_Franktalk]

I can't help but wonder what happened to the spirit of that little 9 year old LDS girl that was sexually abused by her Primary teacher during Church services. I hope she's learnt her lesson, right?

Why are you transferring the evil done to a nine year old to God? God allows us choice, what we do with that gift is up to us. I don't know exactly how it all works but I would not be surprised to find out that the spirit that was placed in the girl knew exactly what would happen to their body of flesh. We must reject the evil not the stage that it is played on. We also should not blame the maker of the stage. If the actions of evil drive you away from faith in God then Satan has accomplished his goal. But many don't believe in God or believe in evil as a separate knowing.

[_SteelHead]

Hmmm... Maybe because the abuser was called by one having discernment and keys as described by your beliefs. Why did god inspire the bishop to extend a calling to a pedophile?

[_SteelHead]

I don't know exactly how it all works but I would not be surprised to find out that the spirit that was placed in the girl knew exactly what would happen to their body of flesh.

Are you suggesting that this little girl was abused to achieve some "higher purpose" or "greater good"? That somehow... she agreed to this in the pre-existence to prove some point, or to be tested to a greater degree?

What greater good could possibly come out of the sexual abuse of a child? Even given the limitations of my comprehension, really how could anything good come out of this that could not been achieved without the destruction of an innocent?

I do not know how you feel/think Frank, but I am unwilling to believe in a God who allows for the abuse of a child to achieve some incomprehensible higher purpose. Just as I am unwilling to believe in a god that would preserve little Tommy's fiver, or who would for years provided manna to the Israelites in the wilderness, but who today allows 10s of thousands of children to die of starvation in sub Saharan Africa.

[_Franktalk]

Hmmm... Maybe because the abuser was called by one having discernment and keys as described by your beliefs. Why did god inspire the bishop to extend a calling to a pedophile?

It is my belief that much of the church and all churches do not have enough discernment. It is very difficult to cast off this world. The way I talk and write causes many to greatly object to the things I say. I expect that. I expect that the flesh is weak and will continue to be weak. A developing spirit does not strengthen the flesh. Even with a developing spirit it is still hard to listen to just the spirit and ignore the world. The Apostles sinned daily so how can we expect to do better? We try the best we can and over time we do reject the flesh as weak. But we do not get new flesh in this life.

In this cesspool of a world we all do the best we can. We find love where we can and try and hold onto those moments when the world is not crushing us. Mistakes happen and will continue to happen.

[_Franktalk]

Are you suggesting that this little girl was abused to achieve some "higher purpose" or "greater good"? That somehow... she agreed to this in the pre-existence to prove some point, or to be tested to a greater degree?

I don't know since I can't see into the hearts of man. But God has taken evil and used it for His purposes. Take Joseph who was sold by his brothers into slavery. Many years later Joseph still held his faith and God used Joseph to save many. So the actions of the brothers was evil but in time the evil was used for good. It does not change the evil act. It just shows the power of God and the weakness of man.

I do not know what happened to this girl in the pre-existence. But I would not be surprised to find out that we know way more about the life we are going into than we can imagine.

[_aranyborju]

I would not be surprised to find out that we know way more about the life we are going into than we can imagine.

It's off the cuff statements like this that taint Mormon doctrine to begin with. People like you make comments like these in church, and new members and ignorant members hear it, and then repeat it as if it's doctrine, and the next thing we know, there is another speculative teaching circling all of mormondom. Keep up the good work.

[_Franktalk]

It's off the cuff statements like this that taint Mormon doctrine to begin with. People like you make comments like these in church, and new members and ignorant members hear it, and then repeat it as if it's doctrine, and the next thing we know, there is another speculative teaching circling all of mormondom. Keep up the good work.

You imagine the church is weak. I do not. Its strength is in the core members who are strong in faith. I have heard some pretty wild things from members. Many of those things I read right here on these boards. If you wish to make little robots of the members and quiet any discussion or speculation then the church will be far weaker than it is today. And just what happens to those who are strong in faith? Are they rewarded with a peaceful life? No they are not.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

We are to seek the truth. If the world stands in the way I will cast it off. If you stand in my way I will cast you off. How are we to ask questions of the Holy ghost if we can't ponder what we don't know? Please answer that question.

The church is made of men with faults and weaknesses. Each thing said needs to be checked against scripture and prayed about. I place my trust in prayer not the church. Only when the members are witnessed to by the Holy Ghost can the church be strong.

[_aranyborju]

It's off the cuff statements like this that taint Mormon doctrine to begin with. People like you make comments like these in church, and new members and ignorant members hear it, and then repeat it as if it's doctrine, and the next thing we know, there is another speculative teaching circling all of mormondom. Keep up the good work.

You imagine the church is weak. I do not. Its strength is in the core members who are strong in faith. I have heard some pretty wild things from members. Many of those things I read right here on these boards. If you wish to make little robots of the members and quiet any discussion or speculation then the church will be far weaker than it is today. And just what happens to those who are strong in faith? Are they rewarded with a peaceful life? No they are not.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

We are to seek the truth. If the world stands in the way I will cast it off. If you stand in my way I will cast you off. How are we to ask questions of the Holy ghost if we can't ponder what we don't know? Please answer that question.

The church is made of men with faults and weaknesses. Each thing said needs to be checked against scripture and prayed about. I place my trust in prayer not the church. Only when the members are witnessed to by the Holy Ghost can the church be strong.

spare me the warren jeffsesque rant language. I'm not sure how I am standing in your way, but I'm sure it makes you feel 10 feet tall to tell me you are going to cast me off, so go right ahead. Most of what you wrote including your scriptural references didn't even address my comment.

To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with pondering things and receiving a witness from the holy ghost if you believe in all that, but it is still spreading unauthorized doctrine, which ultimately just creates more work for poor bcspace.

[_Franktalk]

To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with pondering things and receiving a witness from the holy ghost if you believe in all that, but it is still spreading unauthorized doctrine, which ultimately just creates more work for poor bcspace.

OMG

[_RockSlider]

Franktalk,

I need to go back in this read ... have not read it for many days. Question ... what is that in your avatar? It looks patterned after the Tree of the Ten Sefirot, but its too small for me to read.

anyway, as to the 1000 years ..

Sefer Yetzirah "According to the master Kabbalists, Rabbi Isaac of Acco, when counting the years of these cycles, one must not use an ordinary phyical year, but rather, a divine year. The Midrash says that each divine day is a thousand years, basing this on the verse, "A thousand years in your sight are as but yesterday" Since each year contains 365 and 1/4 days,a divine year would be 365,250 years long.

According to this, each cycle of seven thousand divine years would consist of 2,556,750,000 years. This figure of two-and-a-half billion years is very close to the scientific estimate as to the length of time that life has existed on the earth.

If we assume that the seventh cycle began with the Biblical account of creation, then this would have occurred when the universe was 15,340,500,00 years old. This is very close to the scientific esitmate that the expansion of the universe bagan some fifteen billion years ago."

In some old school Mormon theology, the 2.5 billion years is referred to as "an eternal round"